(0:01) Okay. (0:02) Welcome to another episode of the BLTNT podcast. (0:05) I’m Matt Loria, and I’m here with my friend, Corinne Hancock, fondly (0:10) known as Chaos Corinne, and now known as Neilao.

(0:17) Yeah. (0:18) Hi, Matt. (0:18) Great to see you again.

(0:20) Nice to see you. (0:21) Thanks for being here. (0:22) It’s been a nice chance to get to reconnect with you after you (0:27) made the big trek across the sea.

(0:29) Yes. (0:30) I feel very honored. (0:31) You took a plane though, right? (0:33) You didn’t take a plane.

(0:34) I did take a plane. (0:35) I definitely don’t take them anymore, but yes, I don’t even know what (0:39) they’re like anymore, actually. (0:41) But you didn’t take a boat is what I’m saying.

(0:44) No, no, no boat this time. (0:46) Yeah. (0:46) You took, you took a plane.

(0:47) So that’s good. (0:48) Yes. (0:51) So some background here, Corinne, you’ve gone from being a TEDx speaker, (0:59) international consultant, to now you are a grassroots economic(1:03) developer in Enana, Namibia, in Africa.

(1:14) And you and I met about a year ago. (1:18) You were a consultant. (1:19) You were an expert speaker at an event that I was at that I really felt like (1:24) you did a great job teaching us how to thrive in chaos.

(1:27) And so I’m glad you’re here joining us. (1:31) Yeah. (1:31) Thank you so much.

(1:32) It’s so fun. (1:33) It’s, it’s bizarre to be doing a virtual conversation from my, my little (1:39) humble abode here in Namibia and with the time change and power outage issues. (1:46) I think it’s fun.

(1:47) You know, I’m using a solar light as some, some try to do some lighting here. (1:52) It’s all very different now. (1:54) So if, so if we have to pause, it’s because you have to crank the solar(1:58) light to, to generate some more power, right? (2:02) Yeah.

(2:02) I’m riding a bicycle underneath as we talk. (2:06) That’s what’s powering the computer and the internet there. (2:09) Yes.

(2:09) So, so let’s, let’s explain this. (2:12) So, so you were a normal person like up until about 12 months ago or so, at (2:17) least when I met you, you were somebody that was living a similar life to the (2:23) majority of the people that are probably watching or listening to the podcast.(2:26) Right.

(2:26) You were, you were a, a corporate person talking to corporate people, being a mom,(2:33) being a wife, you know, having people over for drinks and stuff like that. (2:39) Like wearing clean clothes, taking hot showers, you know, I mean, I think it’s (2:44) funny Matt coming from you claiming I was a normal person, but you know, also (2:50) it’s all good, but yes.(2:51) I feel like I was a very, I was, you know, on a plane, very similar to all of you, (2:57) you know, on the plane almost every week, traveling from city to city, working (3:01) with companies around, around the country and being so busy, I mean, just where (3:08) every day you live by your calendar, you just, you can’t miss, if it’s not on (3:13) the calendar, it’s not happening, including the workout or anything.

(3:16) And now my life has completely shifted from that. (3:21) There’s no more Starbucks. (3:22) I mean, I live in a town that doesn’t even have a coffee shop or a restaurant (3:26) or any, you know, only one tarred road.

(3:29) So yeah. (3:31) I don’t even have a car. (3:32) I’m not allowed to drive.

(3:34) I walk everywhere. (3:36) So, you know, the, the trek to my office to walk to work every day is the same (3:41) distance that I used to walk from the parking lot at the airport to the terminal. (3:47) Wow.

(3:48) Well, and let’s explain this because some people might think you got (3:50) deported.(3:51) I don’t think everybody has context as to why you’re, why you’re in Africa. (3:56) So, so you, you and your husband basically packed up and joined the Peace Corps.

(4:02) And I, and obviously you, you did it with some, some forethought and some (4:05) planning, but, but you really went from living a normal life here in America to (4:13) now you live in Africa in the, in the Peace Corps. (4:16) Yeah. (4:16) And we, we, you know, we sold everything and the Peace Corps is a bizarre thing (4:20) for those of people who aren’t familiar with the Peace Corps.

(4:23) It, you know, it was a program started in the sixties by Kennedy and it was (4:27) really to create, you know, friendship and, and peace across the world through (4:33) mostly education volunteers. (4:35) And now it’s really expanded over all these years, but it was mostly, it’s (4:40) mostly young people who joined the Peace Corps right after university, right (4:44) after college, they go and they, you know, it’s a very rigorous application (4:48) process and you commit 27 months of your life of service. (4:52) So we don’t get paid.

(4:55) You’re, you’re getting small stipends to survive. (4:57) But for my husband and I in our forties, it’s a very bizarre experience because (5:04) most of the people in our cohort, like I said, they’re either very young, like (5:08) the same age as most as my children almost, or they’re very much older. (5:13) They’ve retired.

(5:14) They’ve already lived their lives. (5:16) They’re in their late sixties or seventies. (5:17) And so no one in their forties really does this because why would you, like (5:23) our lives were going great, they were amazing, you know, we were both at (5:26) kind of the height of our career.

(5:28) And I don’t know, my youngest son graduated high school and the older (5:33) one was in college and we just said, why not? (5:35) Let’s do something totally crazy. (5:38) I talk about thriving in chaos and I want to walk my talk and let’s just do it. (5:43) Let’s see what actually committing 27 months of service really feels like (5:50) and being really uncomfortable.

(5:53) And can, can you do it? (5:54) And you know, can you let it all go? (5:57) Can we sold our house? (5:58) We sold our cars. (5:59) We put everything that was deemed important in a 10 by 10 storage unit. (6:04) That was all we were allowed to, uh, we allowed ourselves to keep.

(6:08) And, uh, it was a huge shock to the whole family, to all of our friends. (6:12) It still is to ourselves every day, if I’m honest. (6:17) Well, I mean, you’re, you’re really doing it.

(6:19) I mean, you jumped in and did it. (6:21) I mean, we, we, we, we brag at Oxiom that we’re a dog food organization because (6:25) we use the products that we, that we sell, you know, we, um, we use our (6:31) own services that we, that we provide. (6:33) And so, um, that, that feels like nothing in comparison to you eating the dog (6:39) food of, of jumping in and, and doing it and really fully (6:44) committing your, your lives to this.

(6:46) So I, I commend you for it. (6:48) And I’m, it shocks me. (6:50) Right.

(6:50) Because, um, you know, when I, when I look at you and your husband, (6:54) you, you do look normal, right? (6:56) So this doesn’t look like somebody who had just, um, you know, some mental (7:00) disturbance who made this decision. (7:03) You did it thoughtfully. (7:04) You did it intentionally.

(7:05) That’s, that’s a word that you use, uh, often is, uh, doing things intentionally. (7:10) And so, um, wow. (7:14) You know, I think, uh, I think everybody watching this is going to think what(7:18) the hell did I do today? (7:19) Because you’re really doing it.

(7:20) So, so good, good job. (7:22) Well, thank you. (7:23) I mean, I appreciate that, but it’s so funny because like I said to other (7:27) people in the outside world and all of my colleagues and people I’ve spoken for (7:32) and companies, everyone just is like, wow, you know, that’s amazing.

(7:35) That you would commit to doing service at that level. (7:39) And it was funny that internally in our families, especially our parents. (7:44) We’re sort of upset.

(7:46) Like, what are you doing? (7:47) You know, why would you, why would you sort of throw everything away? (7:51) It seemed like, especially to my dad. (7:53) And, you know, like I said, I had just one speaker of the year for Vistage. (7:57) Like my, my career is just exploding.

(7:59) My husband is a, is a military consultant contractor travels all over the world (8:04) training, special operation teams. (8:06) He was training SWAT teams down in New Mexico for suicide bombers (8:11) and like cool stuff, right? (8:12) Like everything was so amazing. (8:14) I felt so fancy, you know, I always got upgraded now in first class (8:19) because of my status was so great.

(8:22) And, you know, room upgrades at the Marriott, you get the nice (8:25) car at the National now, everything. (8:28) Like I had finally like achieved all those statuses and to be just thrown(8:33) back at just, I mean, it’s been the most humbling experience because no one (8:41) cares about anything like that here. (8:44) It doesn’t exist.

(8:46) It doesn’t, it’s just, I mean, like I said, we don’t, I I’m happy if I have. (8:52) Water or electricity in my house. (8:54) Now, I mean, we’re happy to have a pretty decent house, I guess.

(8:58) Now I don’t know what, how to compare anything anymore. (9:01) I mean, I’ve been here, it’ll be a year in August that we’ve been here. (9:05) So we still have a really long way to go.

(9:08) And that is daunting sometimes. (9:11) Yeah. (9:13) What, do you know what the why was of like the, why did you, why did you decide to do this? (9:19) And why did you also burn the boats, you know, so heavily, meaning like down to that (9:25) temp, you know, making some rules, right.

(9:27) Going down to that 10 by 10 storage units saying this is all we’re going to keep is (9:30) what fits in this box. (9:33) You know, we’re, we’re going all in, you know, why did, why did you walk away? (9:38) Is it, was there a need inside of you that said, Hey, I need to serve or was there a (9:43) calling or what, what, what was it? (9:45) I think, I think that I’ve always, you know, I worked in the nonprofit sector before I (9:51) started into the, into the corporate world. (9:54) I really like making money.

(9:56) And so that was, you know, it was very, the why was such a deep internal personal (10:04) journey of that. (10:06) I knew that, that I was being sort of drawn to work on the, on the, on the being more (10:14) than the doing, because I, I, I could do all that. (10:17) I was good at doing, I was really, really good at it.

(10:20) And I just had always said that when my youngest son graduated high school, I mean, if(10:26) I’m really honest, it was the burning of the boats had a lot to do with sort of creating a(10:33) forced launch for my children as well. (10:36) Like showing that you guys have to kind of do your life. (10:39) I’m always here to support you and be there for you.

(10:42) But, but I, I wanted to make it challenging. (10:47) Like I, I walk my talk in every aspect.(10:49) And so it’s really like, I can’t talk about all these things I used to do.

(10:54) And, and, you know, I felt like I was running out of inspiration, not really for my clients, but for myself. (11:01) Like I needed to dig deeper. (11:03) It wasn’t very hard anymore.

(11:05) And, and I wanted to do something really hard. (11:08) And my husband and I really thought why would, you know, we could go and do, maybe we always wanted to live in (11:13) Africa again. (11:14) We met in Africa, actually, as a couple.

(11:17) So we were both working on different contracts and we met actually in Central African Republic, which is (11:24) a crazy place. (11:25) And so we had always had the dream to return to Africa. (11:29) And we had always both worked in Africa separately, but never together.

(11:34) And so we thought, well, that would be really cool. (11:36) But we thought maybe it would be doing stuff like he was doing, military contract stuff. (11:41) And then we just had a crazy idea that said, no, let’s serve.

(11:44) Like, what would it feel like to serve, like trade in the war corps for the Peace Corps, essentially? (11:51) Wow. (11:52) Wow. (11:52) What did it, what did it feel like at first when you, when you, like, when you first got there? (11:58) I think at first it’s really exciting, right? (12:01) Because you feel so everything’s so new.

(12:04) We had to learn a new language. (12:05) So you’re, you’re actually served. (12:07) When you go into the Peace Corps, we have to spend three months of actual pre-service training.

(12:13) So they put you with a host family. (12:15) That was the most challenging. (12:16) Living with a family with a bunch of small children.

(12:19) I mean, there was probably five, sometimes seven children in this house that we were living in. (12:25) And they do that to really force you to, you know, engulf into the culture, learn the language. (12:31) So the language that we were assigned to was a language called Oshi Konyama.

(12:37) And I couldn’t even say the language when they were first, it was first assigned to us.(12:42) And, and learning Oshi Konyama has been really challenging. (12:45) And it’s, but it’s a fun experience at first because everything’s new.

(12:50) It’s kind of exciting. (12:53) And then you move to site and you’re like, oh my God, this is actually my life for the next two years. (13:01) You’re in your house that you didn’t choose.

(13:03) You’re in a location you didn’t choose. (13:05) You’re in a job you didn’t choose. (13:07) And now I’m sort of like a low level government employee, you know, like as I work for a town council, (13:17) which means I sort of help town planning and economic development in the town that I live in.

(13:22) So I’m in this really weird structured job. (13:25) So it’s a roller coaster. (13:26) You go from feeling really excited to like, oh my gosh, did I just ruin my life? (13:31) Was this a, you know, a mistake? (13:33) Was this, but then you kind of keep coming up.

(13:36) But never did I feel like I made a mistake, but there’s really tough days. (13:42) There’s very tough days, but I still don’t feel like it was a mistake. (13:46) I don’t miss my life as it, as it was.

(13:50) You’ve, you’ve studied a bit of psychology, uh, in your, in your time. (13:54) Is, is there, is there a psychological phenomenon that, that talks about that, you know, with, with regard to change? (14:01) Is there something that, uh, that you’ve read about that? (14:04) Or like, uh, um, you know, like I said, a phenomenon that you can, that you can tie that to or, or honestly, it’s personal growth curve. (14:13) Yeah, but this one is more, you’re kind of following a little bit of grief.

(14:18) You’re kind of following through the steps of grief because my life and myself is it’s the death of my life and my, myself. (14:26) And so you go through a lot of those stages of grief, of, of denial of, you know, sort of anger to then, you know, moving into acceptance. (14:36) But then sometimes things happen, or you talk to someone at home or, you know, you don’t have water for three days and then you’re back in kind of anger and disappointment.

(14:46) And yeah, and so it’s more because it’s the death of your life as you once knew it. (14:51) And the hardest part is that it will, what I know deep in my heart is it can never, ever, ever be the same. (15:00) How could I ever feel or respond to life in the same way after having this experience? (15:08) I mean, I just don’t know.

(15:09) Like if you were to come back to the United States and, and, and being a long line in Starbucks and be able to complain, like you just, you can’t undo what you’ve, what you’ve experienced. (15:20) Yeah, you can’t, because you can, like, I always say in my keynotes to write, like, awareness can never be taken away. (15:26) And once you experience this level of humanity of experience of, of in suffering, you know, of just true survival, like living in a community where people are not thriving and they’re, you know, they’re in that lowest level of survival every day.

(15:43) And so it’s so hard as working in economic empowerment and trying to help people start businesses that are so stuck in survival mode that you can’t forecast to the future whatsoever.(15:56) It’s just like, what happens tomorrow? (15:58) And so, even for myself, it’s hard for me to even start to now look at the future. (16:03) And so I’ve sort of lost my ability to future plan, like, you know, what are you doing in two years or what do you see your life? (16:11) Like, I barely can see, yeah, even tomorrow or next week now here, because you have no idea how it’s going to go strange.

(16:21) You know, it’s kind of interesting what you just, what you just talked about, about the people being in survival mode and you’re talking about, you know, economic growth and development and things like that and trying to get them to see different things. (16:35) And it’s, I had somebody point this out to me at one point in time is that, you know, they said, they said, I essentially, you can’t see it right now, but I have, I’ll have the faith for you because you can’t see what’s on that next level. (16:48) So if you’re thinking of the hierarchy of needs, right, and they’re in survival, so self-actualization is just, just eons away for them.

(16:57) Are you able to, to help kind of bring them up by that, you know, like, because you know, what’s at each of those next levels? (17:06) Have you been able to, to, to take that and say, hey, I’ve been on the top of the mountain. (17:10) I know, I know how to, you know, I know what it’s like at each of these. (17:15) It’s honestly Matt, it’s so hard.

(17:17) It’s so hard. (17:19) It’s challenging every bit, you know, my background is I’m a cultural anthropologist and through from a psychology background, like you said, and so looking at human beings at this in this capacity and knowing it’s still so. (17:34) It’s so challenging because if someone’s hungry, like actually hungry and worried about how they’re going to feed their family, like for real, not, not how we say it sometimes in the U. S. (17:46) Like actually hungry and it’s very hard to get them to even sort of dream.

(17:53) I actually a big part of the work I do here is I, I put on and put together workshops and, and, you know, like today I was doing a help desk. (18:02) You know, we’re helping people write their CVS or their resumes as we call them. (18:07) And I did a workshop a few weeks ago of a women’s empowerment workshop and I called it a rise and shine and it was dream plan do.

(18:17) And so just trying to even start this idea of even dreaming, like dreaming about what you’re, what you even dream about. (18:24) And then I can help you create a plan so you can actually do it. (18:29) But there’s almost even a lack of, of dreaming of, of even being able to, to think about it because it just is, it’s not possible.

(18:38) And so I really had fun crafting this workshop, trying to help them sort of visualize what if time and money wasn’t the issue, you know, what would you be doing? (18:49) What do you love? (18:50) What do you enjoy? (18:51) Because most people are, that are entrepreneurs here, it’s not something that they, that they dreamt about doing. (19:00) It’s just a skill that they may have. (19:02) Like, I learned how to sew from my mom.

(19:04) So I make dresses or, you know, my, my friend sells tomatoes. (19:09) So now I sell tomatoes. (19:11) It’s not because they love tomatoes or love making dresses.

(19:14) And so I’m trying to get them to be more, at least like, I feel like in America we go so, we’re so good at dreaming and, and thinking about the future and what do we see? (19:26) And, and, and then we know how to make a plan and go for it. (19:29) Like, it’s actually not that hard when you, when you do it, it is hard. (19:34) It just takes hard work and pushing through fear and insecurity.

(19:37) But I’m just working at the base level right now to even get people to dream, to even.(19:43) Yeah. (19:44) You know, and I think we take that for granted in the United States, you know, because I, I, I remember reading about this concept that said, you know, America is, is, was, was based on dreamers.

(19:57) Right. (19:58) So if you think about the people that came to the United States, they were the, the, the, the, the 0.05% of, you know, whatever, Italy or, you know, England or whatever, wherever they came to come over here for the first time. (20:14) It had to, it took enormous guts.

(20:16) Right. (20:17) So all of us, right. (20:18) All of us being, most, I mean, aside from Native American, you know, people being, being part of that, we’re part of that stock.

(20:27) Right. (20:27) I mean, it’s in our, it’s in our, it’s in our DNA, you know, that said great, great grandma or great, great grandpa was the gutsiest person in there, in our little town in Sicily, you know, that, that had the guts to get on a boat, you know, for how many days and come over here and not know where the hell they were going to go or what the hell they were going to do. (20:46) And so it’s, we, we almost take it for granted because it’s, that’s just, it’s just in us.

(20:51) It’s so in us. (20:52) And, and what’s weird to be in a country like Namibia is Namibia is, you know, what used to be a German colony and then was taken over by South Africa and just recently gained their independence in 1990. (21:06) And so it’s a very, very new country and a country that was been colonized and colonized and sort of in a very, and, and during apartheid, so very separate from blacks and whites.

(21:17) And so it was very challenging in my, in my position being American, because actually America, they don’t really know much about America here. (21:28) And it’s, it’s fine. (21:29) It’s like, not very interesting, like, it’s not that it’s not interesting, but, you know, you go to other countries and they kind of know a lot.

(21:35) And so, but they know us to be very, just so go for it. (21:42) They think we’re fearless.(21:43) They think, you know, and it was funny.

(21:44) I actually had a driver just the other day and he asked me, he was so funny. (21:48) He goes, I’ve heard of this thing and people say the American dream. (21:54) He said, what, what does that actually mean? (21:57) What does the American dream mean? (21:59) And I thought it was such a cool question because it made me even stop and think what, what does it mean and what does it mean to me? (22:08) And I, you know, I turned it back asking it like, well, what do you think it means? (22:12) And he thought it meant that you come to America and just everything’s golden and sparkly and perfect and easy.

(22:19) And I was like, not, not exactly. (22:21) It goes back to our conversation, just that you can come from anything and make yourself made in America, where I’m in a place that it’s very much about titles, education, family, what tribe you come from, where you were born. (22:36) You know, it’s, it’s very hard to make your way into something new.

(22:40) Whereas in America, it’s true. (22:42) You know, it doesn’t matter where you came from, what kind of family, what kind of education, if you’re willing to do the work, you can, you can get there. (22:50) Like it’s tough, but it can be harder depending on where it can be hard.

(22:55) Yeah, it can be harder. (22:58) You know what I mean? (22:58) If you’re in America and, and you’re, and you’re born into poverty here, it certainly is harder. (23:04) We, I mean, we can’t, you know, ignore that fact that it’s harder to get certain places.

(23:09) But, but as you’re comparing it to the rest of the world, they can’t even fathom the dream, let alone, let alone have the opportunity. (23:19) But maybe that’s where they gave you, is that why they gave you your, your tribal name of Nalao, which, which means to bring luck?(23:29) Yeah, it’s really interesting. (23:31) Thank you.

(23:31) Yeah, it’s funny because my name, Corinne, in, in, in where I live in the North, where they speak Oshiwambo language is Oshikunyama, is that it’s very difficult. (23:42) Like, like Corinne doesn’t exist. (23:44) I’m called Karen, Connie, like, you know, Karina, but like, it just doesn’t work.

(23:48) But a very beautiful blessing that you get here is you are baptized with your tribal name.(23:55) And, and mine was Nalao, which means to bring luck. (23:58) And it actually, it makes me feel so wonderful because no one calls me Corinne here.

(24:03) Everyone just calls me Nalao. (24:05) And, and Zach and I are the only Americans in our town where, I mean, just so we kind of stand out and everyone knows us. (24:13) And my husband’s name is Tuhafini, which means to bring happiness.

(24:16) And I think that’s pretty cool because we do feel like, I mean, talking to you is reminding me maybe I’m doing more impact than I think. (24:26) Because on a daily basis here, it doesn’t feel that way. (24:29) You know, you feel like you’re just trudging through the sand that I walk through every day.

(24:36) Well, we should probably mention, I mean, like even you even had to trudge through the sand to get to, to be able to shoot this today because you went to your office, which is a 20 minute walk from here. (24:48) So your office is a 20, let’s just, let’s, let’s create some context here for everybody. (24:52) So about daily life, you know, the water, food, electricity, community, you’ve talked about some of these things, but, you know, literally you don’t have a car, you got to walk about 20 minutes to work.

(25:05) Yeah, 20, yeah, 25. (25:07) Yeah. (25:07) Okay.

(25:08) And, and it’s not, it’s not like, it’s not always 70 and, and have, has a nice breeze and you’re not walking on, you’re not walking on a regular road. (25:18) You’re walking through sand.(25:20) Correct.

(25:20) Yes, correct. (25:22) So, I mean, you know what I mean? (25:23) I think about it. (25:24) I mean, when you told me that a couple of months ago, we were talking, I was thinking, you know, I complained to my wife walking from the, the, the, the beach house, you know, at, at, at, at the beach that we, we use the beach house to the, to the water.

(25:41) You know, if one of the kids leave something down there, because it’s hard to walk through the sand and it’s like, you’re walking through sand for 20 minutes, 25 minutes. (25:51) Every day, no matter what you want to do. (25:56) Well, and then today, you know, today we’re, we’re, we were scheduled to, to get this going.

(26:02) And you sent me a message on WhatsApp and said, Hey, I need another 10 minutes.(26:08) That was because there was no power at your office. (26:11) So you had to walk back home to do this.

(26:14) So, you know what I mean? (26:15) And, and like you said, this is just daily life. (26:19) This is, there’s not a, you didn’t, you didn’t, you know, start swearing and, you know, getting all upset and honking your horn or whatever it was. (26:26) You don’t have a horn, but I mean, maybe you carry one.

(26:29) I can get you one of those handheld horns. (26:31) It makes a different kind of noise, but I’m very familiar with that. (26:36) Thank you.

(26:37) You’re more than welcome to tell that story if you like. (26:40) Oh, okay. (26:40) At the right, at the right point in time.

(26:42) At the right moment, for sure. (26:44) I think the most challenging thing, it’s funny because you forget, it’s amazing how quickly you adapt though. (26:50) Like, like it doesn’t even seem weird anymore to me.

(26:53) And for you to say that it’s so funny because you’re right. (26:56) It’s just so normal life for me now. (26:59) And, and like to go to the grocery store is kind of a highlight, right? (27:04) Because we, and, and the, but the grocery store is even farther, but you have to decide what you’re going to buy that day.

(27:10) And are we going to take a taxi? (27:12) Sometimes we’ll take a taxi back home with all of our groceries, but, but the taxis are kind of expensive, but then putting it into American concept, it’s, it’s not actually, it’s like actually probably 50 cents or something, but on a Peace Corps salary, it’s actually kind of expensive. (27:31) So we’re all screwed up now on our money, on everything. (27:36) That makes me want to ask the question on the money side of things.

(27:39) So the way that you’re living and this, this still will stay in line with the explaining about, you know, what life is like there. (27:47) Are you able to actually use your own money or do you have to be on a stipend? (27:51) Like what the, you know, do you have to live according to a Peace Corps sort of thing? (27:56) Yeah, that’s a great question because honestly, they would very much like you to live just on your Peace Corps stipend. (28:03) So the way it works is the host organization.

(28:05) So we live in a town council house. (28:07) So the town council, since that’s who I work for, they provided our housing. (28:12) And so I live, my husband and I live in a town council house, which is pretty decent.

(28:16) Like I said, like we, we have our own bedroom, a bathroom with a shower, not, you know, you know, an electricity, it’s nothing fancy, but it’s nice. (28:25) And my husband works for the ministry of health and they provided all of our furniture. (28:30) So all of our furniture, we have, you know, a bed and a couple of folding tables and folding chairs, but, but, you know, basic things.

(28:37) And then the Peace Corps, thank you taxpayers for, it provides us a very small stipend that’s for our, our, you know, food and transportation money, but it’s very, very minimal. (28:49) Let’s say probably equivalent to about 200, maybe 250 US dollars a month each that my husband and I are having to live on. (28:58) So it’s, so it doesn’t afford you really any freedom.

(29:03) So my husband and I do use a lot of our own money, our savings to travel on, on holidays on, you know, over Christmas, you know, we get to explore the country. (29:13) We feel so fortunate that we can then, you know, travel, but again, it’s a Peace Corps rule that you’re not allowed to drive a vehicle. (29:21) So that makes it almost impossible.

(29:24) And we, we take 10 hour bus rides. (29:27) It’s so brutal. (29:28) So it almost makes the travel so frustrating, but you really appreciate the launch when you get there.

(29:35) Wow. (29:36) So, so with your, with your background, I mean, you guys are both mentally tough people, right? (29:42) So I think that you, you know, the thing that always comes up for me when I meet people doing interesting things or doing something that’s challenging or, and even if it doesn’t seem that grandiose of a thing is that you are uniquely (29:57) qualified to be doing what you’re doing and being in the position you’re in and where you are right now in the world. (30:03) And so I think a lot of that came from your, I mean, obviously your backgrounds, right? (30:10) Your husband with Zach doing the, the, the, the training that he does and everything like that.

(30:14) I mean, obviously a mentally tough person you as well, and then teaching, you know, to people to how to thrive in chaos. (30:23) Right. (30:24) And you know, you said something that, that, that I think it was, you’re, you’re never going to be chaos proof, but you can be chaos ready.

(30:36) So thank God you’ve, you know, you’ve done all the hard work that you’ve done for all these years, because I don’t know the average person. (30:43) I don’t know how they’re, how they’re surviving doing what you’re doing. (30:46) Yeah.

(30:47) Thank you. (30:47) And I’m not just blowing sunshine. (30:48) I’m just like, I just, I’m like, I need it today.

(30:51) Thank you, Matt. (30:55) You forget, you forget how hard it is. (30:58) And, you know, I’m sitting here right now, like sweating my guts out and, and mind you, it’s going into winter time where I am, but, you know, it’s just, there’s no, there’s no niceties.

(31:09) There’s no nice thing. (31:11) Like everything becomes so sacred, like, and I love getting to reconnect with appreciation. (31:17) And, and so that part has been really cool of a learning.

(31:22) And then I hope to keep passing on to people that are not, you don’t have to go through this experience, but to really enjoy those small wins to really enjoy the small moments, because that’s actually all life is made up of is what I’m figuring out because all my huge accomplishments, all the things I have, no one cares about here. (31:44) No one cares at all.(31:46) Like, it’s weird to be so overly qualified for the job that I’m doing and be doing like such basic things.

(31:55) Like sometimes, I mean, literally, you know, I’m teaching people, you know, how to use word or PowerPoint, unlike Microsoft 97, right? (32:04) I mean, it’s like mind blowing what’s happening. (32:07) And, and you’re just like, what happened? (32:09) Right. (32:09) I used to work with top CEOs like you from around the world that are doing such crazy things.

(32:16) And now it’s so simple. (32:18) So you have to refocus on like the things that actually what does matter? (32:23) What does make you smile throughout the day? (32:25) And for me before, it was all about accomplishing what, like winning and doing great and making more money and, and, you know, just accomplishing and now accomplished. (32:37) That’s funny you said that.

(32:39) That’s funny you say that about the accomplishment things, because, you know, I think it’s always pointed out to us, you know, that to focus on the little things, you know, not the things that rust, right? (32:49) Like things, things will rust, things will fall apart. (32:51) But it’s funny how you also tie in the, the accomplishments, right? (32:56) And those are almost things that rust as well. (32:58) And I never really thought about it like that until you just said it is that those, those, those tarnish and just become nothing over time as well.

(33:09) Or you may change like a, a total different culture or, or place in the world where none of those accomplishments have any, any weight or value because there’s no, there’s no context to them. (33:22) So they don’t matter if I had a hundred herd of cattle, that would be impressive, but I don’t and so I’m not very impressive here, right? (33:32) Like, it’s very interesting that things that are of value aren’t the same value, but the deep things are like our relationships and, and your, your, your faith, your, your family, your health, like things that aren’t. (33:50) That we just talk about all the time in America, but we kind of, I think we gloss over it because it’s so easy.

(33:58) Like, it’s easy because all the things are good. (34:01) Right. (34:01) You know, and everyone’s like, no, you need to work on being bored.

(34:04) Like, I just want to be bored. (34:06) I’m like, you say that until it’s your only option.(34:09) Like, let me tell you about being bored.

(34:11) Like, it’s not very fun, actually. (34:14) Like it’s being bored. (34:16) If you have another option of like, you know, doing something else, but if it’s your only option, like it is for us, you are going to find things that start to become.

(34:27) Special or interesting. (34:29) And it’s, it’s been a weird thing. (34:30) I can’t imagine how it’s going to feel even a year from now.

(34:34) Right. (34:34) I don’t know. (34:35) Sure.

(34:36) So with, with, with what it feels like right now, let’s pretend that you were back in a, a room full of CEOs and what would you, what would you teach differently in your thriving in chaos workshop? (34:51) I think, I think it would be more, I think I would still like, we’ve talked about before, like, I have this, you know, ACE model, like assessing, creating and executing when things are crazy. (35:06) And I, I would say I keep practicing that here because I’m very curious. (35:11) Does that still hold up? (35:13) I mean, I’m a researcher, right? (35:14) I want to know, does my framework work in any situation? (35:18) And I think that I, I’ve come to that.

(35:22) It does, but the speed is different. (35:25) And so I’m creating this new relationship with perspective, like how much perspective really matters. (35:31) And that I would teach more about us as leaders, connecting more with, with like looking through the lens that we’re viewing the world through versus the way that everyone else is.

(35:45) And I know we talk about perspective, but I think I’m wanting to dig in more to this research sort of around perspective. (35:53) How do you actually get better at taking other people’s perspective? (35:58) One that you don’t have any connection to, because I have to do that every day. (36:03) It’s so challenging.

(36:04) And how do I share my perspective where you, where I can bring you into my world in a world that doesn’t relate, which is what I’m experiencing now. (36:14) But that’s what leaders deal with, with their employees, with their vendors, with all of those things. (36:19) And so I really want to dig more into how do you bridge that gap when there’s misunderstanding? (36:26) And maybe we don’t even know there’s misunderstanding, which is what sometimes happens in my day-to-day life here.

(36:33) But there clearly is, because our perspective and our context are completely different.(36:39) They could never be the same, no matter how much I share, no matter how much they share. (36:44) How can we bridge it together? (36:45) So I think it would be more about getting back on mission, getting back on like, what are we trying to accomplish? (36:52) That kind of stuff.

(36:53) So I’m going to dig in more to that because I see it with you guys too. (36:57) It’s always been, you know, we see things this way and we’re like, why can’t people just get it? (37:02) Like, I feel that way every day. (37:06) Yeah, it’s interesting.

(37:07) I mean, when you talk about going back to mission, I mean, I feel like the, the only thing that I can do to make my (37:13) company better at this, at this point with what, what I personally can contribute is sharing the mission, sharing (37:21) the vision, sharing the core values and making sure that we’re, that we’re all as aligned as we can possibly be. (37:28) And that I’m talking to people about their stories and what it means to them to align to that. (37:34) You know, why do you come here every day? (37:35) Right.

(37:36) I mean, at every chance I get, I thank our employees for choosing us. (37:42) They choose us every day, right? (37:43) I mean, they can go, they can go anywhere. (37:45) Right.

(37:46) And so it’s, it’s because they feel aligned to something. (37:51) So I think for me, when I’m getting out of this is I got to do more of that. (37:57) Cause it’s the only way that we, that we get to know other people is to know their why and what’s, you know, what’s (38:05) driving them and what their, what their perspective is.

(38:08) Right. (38:09) Yeah. (38:09) And it’s really interesting and really trying to, I guess, I don’t even know if it’s like understand it, but maybe see (38:17) the value in it of why it’s valuable to them.

(38:20) And so, you know, cause a lot of things here that I experienced are so culturally diverse and, you know, there’s a lot (38:26) of huge, huge divides, even gender wise and things and in my role. (38:31) And it’s very interesting to, to keep exploring that. (38:38) And, and like I said, how, how am I perceived here versus the perception, you know, that I think I’m being (38:45) perceived as, or, or how am I perceiving my, my counterparts, my workmates and things.

(38:51) And so it’s, it’s giving me a lot of ideas of how I could learn from this and build on it for how to help, help you (38:59) guys, because I think it’s, it’s all the same. (39:02) We’re still human beings, whether, you know, but it’s, it’s a challenge that that divide can be (39:07) challenging when we don’t even know it exists sometimes. (39:12) Is, is, is that really frustrating though, or even more frustrating there than it is here? (39:18) Would you say for you, because, you know, here, if we have a, you know, let’s, let’s use that mission piece.

(39:25) You know, if, if, if we have two people here in America who, you know, the, the, the, the supervisor and the (39:32) employee, however you want to, want to say that if we have the same language, we have at least some of the same, you (39:42) know, cultural understandings. (39:45) And then we also understand the same American dream piece here too, right? (39:50) I think, I think most of us, even the stuck people, we have to know that there’s, you know, even the stuck person (39:56) here is, is not as stuck as a person there. (39:59) Yes.

(39:59) Is that frustration ever, ever get to you to the point where you, you know, want to spend the day in bed or anything like that? (40:08) Yes. (40:09) Every day, every day. (40:11) I will tell you it’s, it’s such every day is a new sort of, I have to re pump myself up because I sit through, I mean, if anyone (40:21) ever complains about a staff meeting again, I will just tell you, this is no exaggeration.

(40:26) I for real sat through a eight and a half hour staff meeting with no breaks, nothing.(40:33) Some people never even got up and went to the bathroom and it’s just, and nothing gets accomplished. (40:40) And so, yes, it’s like, it’s so mind numbing sometimes where you have the answers or you have something that, you know, could (40:48) change this, or you’ve implemented a new tool or you’ve tried to show something that would really change things for the better.

(40:56) And no one listens or they forget, or this is the way we’ve always done it kind of mentality. (41:01) So it’s very similar, but I, I’m very I’m very challenged sometimes because I’m not in charge and I’m used to being in charge. (41:12) And I’m a female in a very different culture and, and it’s, there’s also issues with titles, right? (41:21) You know, I mean, I’m, I am a doctor, you know, Dr, Dr. (41:24) Corinne and, you know, and, and some, some of my colleagues are intimidated by that.

(41:29) Some like to use it, like it just, it’s, there’s just a lot of those different challenges that, that come up and yeah, I have to re motivate myself, use my own (41:42) framework, use my own motivation every day of like, okay, what’s something I can be happy about? (41:47) You know, my husband and I have a joke that neither of us can have a crummy day on the same day, because it’s just too much, right? (41:58) Because you’ll just sort of spiral into the abyss of, of negativity because there it’s really hard to grab onto some positives here. (42:07) Like it is sometimes.(42:08) And, and so you find them in the smallest things, but it’s, it’s a pretty, I think it’s a great tip for anyone that is married or, you know, coworkers, like you don’t get to bolt jump on the, on the hate train on the same day.

(42:22) Like someone’s got to stay off and try to remind you that the, that it’s good. (42:27) Yeah. (42:28) Yeah.

(42:28) Right. (42:29) I mean, otherwise misery loves company and it’s just nothing, nothing good is going to come from that. (42:33) Let’s, let’s talk a little bit about your framework and, and what you’ve been teaching here.

(42:40) Because I mean, I know not everybody watching this episode with you here is going to know who you are and what you’ve, what you’ve been doing. (42:48) So could you give us kind of the, I don’t know, call it the 10 minute crash course. (42:52) Do you have a 10 minute version of your, of your, of your course that you can.

(42:56) Yes, you can watch my TED talk. (42:59) Okay. (43:00) Is that 14 minutes? (43:02) Yeah, no.

(43:03) And now it’s Matt. (43:04) It’s it’s we’re in an era where that’s too long. (43:06) People don’t have attention spans for that.

(43:08) It’s gotta be under 10 now. (43:10) Oh, are you serious? (43:11) Is that true? (43:11) Yes.(43:12) I’m serious.

(43:13) Yes. (43:13) That’s the new bad. (43:15) But essentially my, my work before as a cultural anthropologist was always about how to thrive in chaos, how to use chaos to your advantage.

(43:24) I never saw chaos as a negative and how you use change and disruption as a catalyst for positive forward motion and momentum and really getting into a relationship with chaos. (43:37) So it becomes something that you work with. (43:40) Now, in my experience of all these years of working mostly with leaders is you guys are excellent at it.

(43:46) Like CEOs, executive teams, we thrive on it. (43:49) We love change. (43:50) We love to create disruptions and the chaos is what fuels us.

(43:54) And it builds innovation in ways that make us really successful and, and, and innovative.(44:01) And what I spend a lot of time with then is helping people get more into relationship with chaos so they can help others thrive in it. (44:10) Like you could help your teams thrive in it more because my experiences was, is we were kind of seen as a little crazy or like, you know, always trying to disrupt the boat and rock the boat as leaders.

(44:22) And so how could we get others to improve their relationship with chaos and, and have a better experience with it? (44:29) So I just did a lot of coaching around navigating that as, as a relationship, like with how you’re going to communicate with your team, providing more clarity.(44:40) And using that psychological safety as a, as a background of it all that every human being needs to feel safe. (44:48) And if you do not provide safety, you’re always going to have these default reactions of the ABCs.

(44:55) If you remember, people are always going to go into either avoiding blaming and complaining. (44:59) So when things change outside of your control, your default reaction as a human being is to avoid blame or complain. (45:07) It just, it’s just a natural human response.

(45:11) And, and so I try to help us one, recognize that that happens, but then how do you very quickly move, move through that? (45:18) How do you move into that ACE response? (45:21) The assessing, the creating, the executing of a new plan. (45:24) And so I think even just bringing the awareness around those ABCs is huge that we have them and that the chaos is created when you stay in them. (45:35) And, and when you stay in avoiding blaming and complaining, that’s when the chaos starts to happen.

(45:41) And so clarity is the only thing that helps provide people that safety that can move them out of avoiding blaming and complaining because avoiding blaming and complaining actually creates clarity. (45:57) I know that sounds crazy, but if you think about it, avoiding, I know exactly what I’m avoiding. (46:03) That’s enough clarity for me to feel safe in the moment.

(46:05) Blaming is even better because one, I can put it onto something else, which provides clarity. (46:12) I can blame you and it’s off of me, which is even safer. (46:16) And then complaining, you can see why complaining and why misery loves company and all those things, because look what that does.

(46:24) One, I know exactly what I’m complaining about. (46:27) So that’s clarity makes me feel safe. (46:29) But then if I can get others, my team, my tribe to come together with me, I feel extra safe.

(46:37) And so that’s sort of, you know, understanding just that concept in itself helps have the awareness like, oh, I’m in the avoiding blaming or complaining right now. (46:48) I mean, I was today when, like, you know, the power was out. (46:52) I was blaming, you know, my life in Namibia, just, you know, that.

(46:56) And and then you have to very quickly. (46:58) It’s how fast you can move through it.(47:00) And so I have to.

(47:02) Yeah, that’s interesting. (47:03) I just had a I just let me let me share with you a situation that that on that avoiding blaming, complaining. (47:11) It’s funny after after you had done your workshop, I called it the ABC, which was avoid avoiding blaming and complaining.

(47:20) Right. So the reminder of to avoid doing those three things. (47:23) But I was having a conversation with a with a teammate here just this this past week.

(47:31) And I said, I said, I’m sorry, I can’t I couldn’t hear anything after that intro that you just did because you blamed and you complained. (47:42) And when you did that, I was unable to listen to anything else because the accountability piece was gone. (47:49) And so we need to we need to reframe.

(47:52) I didn’t get mad. (47:53) I just said we need to reframe this. (47:55) I need you to come at it a different way without the the accusation, the blaming, the complaining.

(48:01) So so I changed the A out on you there. (48:03) But, you know, it was like and I realized that about myself is like, when did you shut down, Matt? (48:11) You shut down as soon as you heard it as blaming others. (48:15) And I always do the finger point.

(48:17) You know, there’s always three pointing back at you type of thing as a reminder. (48:20) But it was so tough. (48:23) How can we how can we get better at that? (48:27) Did I do that the right way or is there a better way that I could go about that when I when I sense it? (48:33) If I’m honest, I mean, you got to let people feel what they feel for a minute because it’s real for him.

(48:39) And that’s the toughest part. (48:40) If you remember why he’s doing it is because there’s something within him that didn’t make him feel safe, that he felt that he had to either(48:49) blame someone else because he didn’t feel safe, that either he was going to be disappointing you or, you know, which then could lead to eventually deep, deep, deep, deep down, losing his job, living in the, you know, the basement of his mom’s house. (49:03) Like, right.

(49:03) It goes all the way back to survival. (49:05) And so it’s giving people it’s it’s the hardest part for us. (49:10) Like for me.

(49:12) A hundred percent, and especially with my children, with my husband, but and for us that are really we love to just get it done is to give people a minute to feel that discomfort, like really acknowledging him for a minute that that was real for him. (49:28) And essentially you kind of told him, like, no, you shouldn’t feel that way. (49:33) Right.

(49:33) And it’s like, but he did. (49:36) And so it’s like giving just a minute of the and that’s like in the ACE model, the assessing of it, but the assessing to of the and it’s hard for people because we don’t want to be like, come on, just put your pants on and get back to work. (49:50) This is B.S. (49:51) Right.

(49:51) But there is a minute of just like, whoa, yeah, I bet that really sucked and not not agreeing with it, but acknowledging the fear factor of it because it’s coming from a place of actual fear of of of survival deep, deep, deep down. (50:10) And so if you can give people just a minute and just a microsecond of acknowledgement of like, wow, yeah, I bet that sucked.(50:18) That was that I bet that was really scary.

(50:21) And then it could be moving into, like, more of an assessment, like instead of it just and trying to hear it through a sense of fear instead of lack of accountability, because that’s the next step. (50:35) We could even add the words acknowledge. (50:40) Right.

So acknowledge before we then go into the assess, create, execute. (50:46) So I think that’s what I think. (50:48) That’s something I could certainly work on.

(50:49) So I appreciate that. (50:51) Yeah, you’re welcome. (50:51) And it’s hard.

(50:52) It is so hard, like and I’m not trying to use the on you, but it like actually is even for me.(50:59) I mean, especially because you can imagine the things here that people and like, how is that real? (51:06) Like, because you can’t make it up, just can’t make up some of the stuff that happens here. (51:12) And I want to blame and complain every day.

(51:15) And my husband and I give ourselves I think there’s fairness and there’s value in venting.(51:20) And you have to allow a little space for venting and create a little bit of safety for that, but not living in it. (51:29) Right.

(51:29) And so we kind of give ourselves. (51:31) Yeah, because then that just becomes commiseration then. (51:34) Yeah, but also like you can’t also bottle it all up and pretend it doesn’t exist either.

(51:39) And so I think it’s everything’s a balance and a fine line between that. (51:46) I’m writing a note. (51:48) Oh, good.

(51:49) Yeah, I’m kind of thinking I’m going to use some of this. (51:53) Good. I’m so excited.

(51:55) I’m like, well, I had notes from the last time we talked to. (51:59) So, yeah, no, I’m learning every time I’m talking to you. (52:01) Thank you.

(52:03) You know, so I think that goes then to the statement that you had made about the, you know, shifting from a reacting to a responding. (52:12) And so so if I just continue on this on this example here. (52:16) By reacting and snapping it off too early, we didn’t allow the whole feeling to occur by responding.

(52:26) We’re saying, OK, I’m actually using that time to acknowledge and respond and to say, OK, this is coming from somewhere that sucks. (52:34) Like that sucks that you feel like that.(52:36) Right.

And then dig in on that and find out what the deeper root is there. (52:40) So I really see where that kind of ties in. (52:44) You also, though, said something and I don’t remember what the words were, but it was like behind every complaint is something.

(52:52) Do you remember what you said there? (52:54) Yeah. So so behind every complaint is a commitment. (53:02) OK, can you explain? (53:03) And I know that sounds crazy, but if every behind every complaint is actually a commitment.

(53:09) So I used to say if you have like it’s like think about what a complaint is really coming from. (53:16) And if you live by if every complaint behind every complaint is a commitment, you’re going to get very. (53:25) Mindful of what you complain about, because we had a saying in my family, if you have a complaint, you have a project, because think about it.

(53:35) If the complaint is worthy of your life. (53:39) You’re going to take action on it, and so that’s where you can start to evaluate, is this something worthy of my life? (53:45) Is this something that I really want to take on that I’m going to take action on or am I just complaining about it? (53:52) And so because if the complaint is connected to a commitment, the story I have an example that came from it, I used to have a woman in my neighborhood and maybe I told you this story before, but I’ll share it briefly. (54:06) And she was always she was that community complainer, always complaining about the drivers in our neighborhood.

(54:12) Right. And we have those shared mailboxes that you walk to or you drive to. (54:16) And I would try to avoid her.

(54:18) Like, I didn’t want to go and see her at the mailbox because she was always complaining.(54:21) Oh, my God. I saw Tommy’s son the other day.

(54:23) I think he was going forty five and always complaining about the drivers in our neighborhood. (54:28) Well, like we’re at a community barbecue pool party thing months and months later. (54:35) And I see her walking into the pool party and already I’m having like, oh, there’s, you know, the community complainer.

(54:41) But she’s walking in with her son. (54:43) He’s probably about, I don’t know, six years old. (54:46) And she introduces me to her son and her son is deaf.

(54:54) Hmm. So all of a sudden I had this huge like, oh, my gosh, the epiphany. (55:02) Her complaint was not about the drivers in the neighborhood.

(55:06) It was, but it was behind a commitment of safety for her son. (55:12) Right. Her fear was that her son wouldn’t be safe.

(55:15) And so you see how it starts to shift. (55:18) And us as leaders, I could have been a better leader in that by getting more curious about her complaint, because where was the complaint really coming from? (55:28) Instead, I just I just ignored her. (55:30) I would see other people join in with her.

(55:31) Right. You know, we see next door and all those things. (55:34) People just love to to get involved.

(55:36) But really, if we can dig in a little bit deeper, get curious about the complaints, not to solve them. (55:43) We’re not here to be the saviors and solvers of things. (55:46) It’s never about that.

(55:47) It’s the awareness to find out where is this coming from? (55:51) Where is this default reaction of behavior coming from? (55:55) And as leaders and as friends and partners, we can get a little bit more curious to be like, hey, what would make a difference for you right now?(56:03) You know, and so like that could have been a great thing with your with your coworker, with your, you know, in that conversation you were in is like be the bigger person. (56:11) Let that first notice in yourself that you went to a complaint or a blame of him not taking accountability and you shut down. (56:20) And now you are almost avoiding the conversation to then getting curious, like, whoa, OK, what’s actually going on here? (56:27) I bet that really sucked.

(56:28) Whatever happened, embarrassed him or made him feel incompetent or whatever.(56:32) But hey, what what could I do right now? (56:35) Is there anything in this moment that would make a difference? (56:39) What do you need right now? (56:40) We’re asking, like you said, asking, asking the questions to say, OK, let’s I mean, same thing with your neighbor getting to the bottom of what’s at the root of this. (56:50) Yeah.

And the truth is, like, the funny part of the story was later once I figured all that out and I was much younger then and very, you know, I guess I’ve always liked helping. (56:59) But, you know, we like, you know, I’ve got involved and we got, you know, those signs put up in the neighborhood that have deaf child in the area and stuff. (57:06) And it was really cool because it’s more about awareness again.

(57:09) And and I think and the drivers were crazy in the neighborhood that what she was saying wasn’t untrue. (57:15) It’s just not the complete story. (57:18) And I think that that’s where we just have to, especially now with everything going on in the world, is just to slow down.

(57:26) And just before we make these rash reactions, know that as a human, you’re going to have them. (57:32) But evaluate it just for a second and find out where could you get more curious? (57:38) And honestly, the question like that I’ve even been using here now that I used to teach you guys always is like, what do you need right now? (57:46) What would make a difference? (57:47) Like, what do you need? (57:49) What do you need? Not what do you want?(57:50) But what do you need in this moment? (57:53) Is there anything that could change this situation in like the next hour? (57:57) Right. And that’s what some of the stuff is we’re having to work on here.

(58:00) But I think it’s really useful to remind you guys back home because the pace of life is so fast and we just react so quickly that we forget to sort of pause for a minute and reevaluate.(58:15) Give me maybe one more. (58:17) Let me let me share this.

(58:19) And this keeps coming up. (58:21) I think I think if somebody’s watching all the podcasts, they’re going to say, hey, you keep bringing this up. (58:25) This is a this is becoming a common thread.

(58:28) And I think it just goes back to human nature, though. (58:31) Right. I had talked about, you know, a default to empathy.

(58:35) Like, wouldn’t it be great if my default would be to be empathetic versus judgmental?(58:43) I’ve heard there’s a fellow named Dr. (58:47) Bill Crawford talks about life from the top of the mind. (58:51) Right. There’s others.

(58:53) Jay Reifenberry talks about your core for your your your top four core personal core values. (59:01) Bob Holland, who we know he leverages his own personal core values. (59:05) And so when a stimulus comes in there, they’re running that through that filter of the top of the mind filter.

(59:11) And they know that it goes the reptilian brain first. (59:14) But there’s a squashing of it filtering it back through the through the top of the mind before it comes out as a as a reaction and better off comes off as a response. (59:26) People are using it through their own their their religious beliefs, you know, Christianity.

(59:30) It’s like, OK, put it through the lens of Jesus. (59:32) Right. So what is maybe another tip that maybe that could that that somebody could use? (59:40) Because remember, not each of these resonates with everybody, but we all the recurring theme is, is that we need to do this.

(59:47) It’s obvious. Right. There’s right there.

(59:49) I just gave you four experts who are talking about it. (59:51) And and we all know it ourselves, too. (59:54) Right.

That that says, oh, shit. (59:56) You know, if I would have just processed that for a minute longer, 30 seconds longer, I wouldn’t have come off as such an asshole. (1:00:03) Yeah, I would have been I would have been effective, you know.

(1:00:06) And so what is your tip for that to run it through the filter? (1:00:11) You know, is it is it take a breath? (1:00:13) Is it count to 10? (1:00:15) Is it you know, what is it for you? (1:00:17) Do you have one? Yeah. (1:00:18) Well, the one I’ve been using here, because it’s very I’m dealing with my own, you know, cultural bias and things here. (1:00:28) But so the one I’ve been using here is I think from the four agreements.

(1:00:32) But I use the one assume best intent. (1:00:37) Because everything that happens here, I’m always like it almost comes off like it was intentionally. (1:00:46) Wrong to.

Yeah, I don’t I kind of don’t know how to describe it quite yet, I hope in the time I’ll in the years as we’ll all process and be more clear, but that’s the one I’ve been using is assume best intent, because what I’ve noticed is I don’t, you know, every time something happens, I feel like someone’s trying to take advantage of me or, you know, something kind of so I’ve really been working on that one of assume best intent. (1:01:13) And and really going back to to, you know, some of those basic core ones, it’s always back to the basics. (1:01:21) And so that’s the one my husband and I joke with a lot.

(1:01:24) We always say, because, you know, you’ll get an email or a WhatsApp message from a coworker that says something and maybe I just maybe it’s a language barrier of I read it incorrectly. (1:01:34) But my new one is like, all right, Karin, assume best intent. (1:01:39) And then and it helps me at least be a little at least be more open in the way I’m going to respond and I’m not coming off already defensive or or yeah, yeah, that’s a that’s that’s a great one.

(1:01:53) I think Mel Robbins was talking about that in her in her book, the let them theory.(1:02:02) And she has that her podcast. (1:02:04) I think I heard that there with her as well.

(1:02:07) And that resonates. (1:02:08) Right. That resonates big time.

(1:02:10) And so this is a great reinforcement of that, because, yeah, you have the choice of choosing is the is the person doing this to attack me? (1:02:19) Almost ninety nine percent chance that that that’s not that’s not the case. (1:02:23) Right. This is this there’s something else behind it.

(1:02:27) And like you said, like, I mean, your example of the person in the neighborhood, the positive intent was really there. (1:02:33) Right. It was I want to keep my kids safe.

(1:02:35) And actually, when you found out about that, you wanted to keep her kids safe as well, too. (1:02:40) So, I mean, the intention was something that you could jump on the bandwagon with as well. (1:02:46) So, yeah.

(1:02:48) OK, so assume positive intent, assume good intent. (1:02:52) That’s great. So we’ve got our ABCs, right.

(1:02:54) The avoiding, blaming, complaining. (1:02:56) We’ve got the ACE model, assess, create and execute. (1:03:00) Reacting to responding behind every complaint is a commitment.

(1:03:04) We got a lot of a lot of stuff here. (1:03:05) Now, is is this is this stuff in your in your TEDx talk? (1:03:12) The TEDx talk is more about just your relationship with chaos and the ABCs and the ACE response. (1:03:18) Yeah.

1. And then and then you have coming up. (1:03:21) Well, I’m going to say coming up, because we’re shooting this in June.

(1:03:25) We’re at the beginning of June or June, June 3rd here, June 3rd, twenty twenty five.(1:03:29) We’re shooting this. This might not get posted until sometime this summer.

(1:03:35) So just based on when this when this comes out, you are going to be speaking at a at a(1:03:43) Vistage event. And I know people probably think I’m a broken record because I talk about (1:03:46) Vistage a lot. (1:03:50) We love it.

(1:03:51) You’re going to be speaking at the Climb event, which is a virtual event that’s that I(1:03:56) believe is open to everyone, whether they’re a member or not. (1:03:58) So I think others will be able to experience you there. (1:04:02) What are you going to talk about? (1:04:04) Give us a give us a preview.

(1:04:05) Don’t don’t spill all the candy in the lobby here, but but give us a preview. (1:04:08) Well, I kind of took some notes because I’ve been working on it because it will be my (1:04:14) first. It’s going to be a new a new, I guess, thriving in Chaos 2.0, right? (1:04:22) Sort of a whole new keynote that I’ll be doing.

(1:04:25) But it’s definitely more of like uncertainty, how how we’re going to navigate like the(1:04:30) power. It’s called the Power of Perspective in Uncertain Times, what the title of it is.(1:04:36) So really digging in to this idea more on perspective and living in a place where my(1:04:42) perspective is completely shifted and how powerful perspective can be in the workplace (1:04:49) as well.

And so really like helping like kind of. (1:04:54) What what CEOs can learn from this power of perspective and leaders and in business (1:05:01) owners, anyone really, so just kind of it’s going to be cool, it’s stay tuned. (1:05:08) That’s great.

You know, I’m sensing that. (1:05:12) So we’re doing a series of the Summer of AI, right? (1:05:16) And we’re talking a lot about artificial intelligence. (1:05:19) And I don’t remember who it was, but one of the one of the.

(1:05:26) Company CEOs of one of the large language models came out and basically just said we are (1:05:31) going to be going through some significant worldwide disruption, especially in the white (1:05:36) collar world, in the in the in entry level jobs, especially in the white collar world, is (1:05:45) going to be decimated by about 50 percent is his estimations. (1:05:49) And so I always take things and like if I’m hearing two people disagree, right. (1:05:54) And I say, OK, if I square root both of them, you know, what what does that message now (1:06:00) look like? Well, it looks like you’re both still crazy size, whatever.

(1:06:03) But but in this particular message, right, even if I square root what he’s saying, that’s(1:06:09) pretty impactful. He’s predicting 10 and 20 percent unemployment. (1:06:13) And, you know, we have we have economists talking about Great Depression coming in the (1:06:20) 2030s.

(1:06:20) And we’ve got kind of a lot going on here, right? (1:06:24) We’ve got some some geopolitical sort of unrest, right? (1:06:28) We’ve got some craziness happening there. (1:06:30) We’ve got AI and automation. (1:06:34) We’ve got economical factors that are, you know, the the monetary supply, et cetera.

(1:06:43) We’ve got a lot of these things kind of intersecting, you know, in these in these next five (1:06:47) years. And I mean, I don’t think your your talk could be any more timely, right?(1:06:53) Because we are we are in the uncertain times. (1:06:57) I mean, I think the United States and just the world in general, you know, we we had a (1:07:02) good long run, you know, of real stability, even though we had some craziness.

(1:07:09) Don’t get me wrong. But you could do certain things, right? (1:07:13) You could go to college and you could get a good job and you could do this and you could do (1:07:16) that, you know, buy a house, 2.5 kids. (1:07:20) You know, I mean, there was a there was a there was a rhythm.

(1:07:23) And I think that rhythm is about to be disrupted. (1:07:24) And go on vacation and do things like actually, you know, yeah. (1:07:29) Well, I mean, even simply, you know, even simply, we also had the ability where people (1:07:33) could go.

You could take a you could decide not to go to college. (1:07:37) You could take a certain job, you know, a factory job. (1:07:39) And you could say, you know, even with some overtime, I’m going to have a great living.

(1:07:43) Right. And I can go on vacations and I can do these things. (1:07:46) And so we’re really into these uncertain times.

(1:07:49) So I think your talk is going to be this 2.0 version of your talk is going to be really,(1:07:54) really timely here. And I think we should we should all listen up. (1:07:58) Thanks.

Yeah, because we’re still all human beings. (1:08:02) You know, we’re still human. (1:08:03) And the reactions, no matter where you are in the world, no matter what is going on, the (1:08:08) behavioral reactions are exactly the same.

(1:08:11) And I’m witnessing it day in and day out here. (1:08:14) And it’s so fun to then transform it into a tool that can be helpful for for people like (1:08:21) you. Sure.

Well, I appreciate that. (1:08:24) So usually I ask people as we’re wrapping up, you know, what are you reading or what do (1:08:30) you what are you focused on right now that maybe is helping to shape some of your (1:08:34) thoughts? But but, you know, as you’re as you’re as you’re in the middle of Africa, maybe (1:08:41) you’re not doing that. I don’t I don’t know.

(1:08:43) That’s all I do. It’s all we don’t have TV or anything like that. (1:08:47) So and we don’t Wi-Fi is not the same here.

(1:08:50) So you have to buy it on credit like so you don’t stream very often. (1:08:54) You know, I mean, gosh, this call is burning up my entire Peace Corps data allowance for (1:09:01) the month. So I read a lot, actually.

(1:09:05) And what cracks me up is right now I’m stuck on Bill O’Reilly’s Killing Series. (1:09:12) So I don’t know if you’ve ever read it, but I just finished Jesus. (1:09:16) So Killing Jesus, Killing Lincoln.

(1:09:19) I’m right now reading Lies and Legends of the Old West. (1:09:23) I mean, Matt, I feel like I never went to school. (1:09:26) I feel like I’m learning.

(1:09:28) And it’s so cool. (1:09:30) And it’s really trying to help me kind of on this idea of perspective. (1:09:33) And and they’re just fascinating.

(1:09:35) So if anyone’s ever like, you know, interested in the way he writes about history and puts (1:09:42) you into the story without a bias. (1:09:44) Right. And so, you know, Killing Jesus was the most incredible book I’ve honestly really (1:09:51) ever read.

So for anyone, no matter what your beliefs are, definitely Christians, you (1:09:56) should definitely read it. (1:09:57) But even if you’re not, it’s a beautifully, historically told story of of the life of (1:10:05) Jesus. And it was incredible.

(1:10:06) And, you know, and my husband’s been reading all the other ones, Killing of the Mob,(1:10:11) Killing of the Killers. (1:10:12) And so we’re having our own little book club of that.(1:10:15) Honestly, I’m like in the one of the Old West, I’m just learning Americans history, like(1:10:21) Killing Kennedy.

(1:10:22) I just like I said, I feel like I never went to school or paid attention because it’s cool(1:10:28) to relearn all of this American history from a different perspective, too, on the especially (1:10:35) Killing Kennedy has been fascinating. (1:10:37) So, yeah, it’s nothing nothing like, you know, about business or anything right now (1:10:43) because that’s just not the space I’m in. (1:10:45) And but I love learning.

(1:10:48) And those have been really, really fun, honestly. (1:10:52) Well, great. Great.

(1:10:55) Well, I think we’ve had a great chat here that that people are going to really enjoy.(1:11:00) So thank you for being with me here. (1:11:02) And I can’t wait to see you at the CLIMB event.

(1:11:05) And then I also can’t wait to have you back on for another for another catch up in a few(1:11:11) months. Oh, Matt, it would be great. (1:11:13) It would be so good.

(1:11:14) And just thank you for this opportunity of allowing me to share some of these moments(1:11:19) and my ability to reflect on it. (1:11:22) I feel like it was a gift for me to remember why I was here, too. (1:11:27) And you’re just so great at and curious and authentic in the way that you ask questions (1:11:32) that it really I feel just like, wow, this is exactly where I’m supposed to be.

(1:11:38) And I’m I’m perfectly designed and with the skill set to be here. (1:11:43) And so I appreciate the reminder that I really needed. (1:11:46) You were you were a gift for me today.

(1:11:49) And oh, great. (1:11:50) Well, I appreciate that. (1:11:51) Yeah, well, I mean, I mean it.

(1:11:52) So, well, great. (1:11:54) Well, let’s wrap it up. (1:11:55) And and until next time, we’ll we’ll see you soon.

(1:12:00) OK, and as they would say in in Oshikunyama, we would say Oshiloete, Nawa. (1:12:06) Is that peace out, bitches? (1:12:08) Is that what you just said? (1:12:09) I’m going to learn how to say that. (1:12:10) Yeah, I was just like, see you later.

(1:12:12) Thank you. (1:12:13) That was good. (1:12:14) Nanginene.

(1:12:16) But I’ll learn how to say peace out, bitches, by next time. (1:12:19) OK, perfect. (1:12:20) Great.

(1:12:24) Thanks.