(0:00) Welcome to the BLTNT podcast. I’m your host, Matt Loria, serving up real stories of business, (0:05) life, technology, and transformations. You’ll hear from interesting people about big changes from (0:10) career shifts to life-altering decisions and the innovations that help make it all happen.

(0:14) It’s about sharing those light bulb moments, pivot points, challenges overcome, and the journeys (0:19) that inspire us to think differently. If you’re on the lookout for insights to propel you forward, (0:23) stories that resonate, or just a bit of inspiration on your next BLTNT move,(0:27) you’re in the right place. Let’s dig in.

Well, welcome to our most recent episode (0:40) of the BLTNT podcast. I’m Matt Loria, here to host our newest guest, Chuck Edwards. (0:46) Thanks for being with us, Chuck.

Thank you for the opportunity. (0:49) You’re welcome. Chuck is kind of the three Cs, a counselor, a coach, and a consultant all wrapped (0:56) into one.

Explains his approach to his work as a hybrid of a private practice of coaching and (1:02) counseling. Recently, you were at a business leaders event that you spoke at. It was titled, (1:12) Don’t Believe the Lies.

You talked about how to get a hold of anxious thoughts that have been (1:17) holding you hostage. A day doesn’t go by that I’m not talking to somebody who’s in the business (1:24) leadership community where anxious, or stress, or words of some sort of emotion that’s going(1:31) through their body that’s probably not the healthiest emotion to be carrying are there.(1:38) I thought, man, wouldn’t it be great to have you come on, explain who you are, explain your (1:42) approach to things, and then also maybe let us leave with a few tips on what we can do for better (1:49) living.

Absolutely. Great. Thanks for being here.

Looking forward to getting to know you here. (1:57) I know that you run a couple of different offices. One in the Rochester area here.

(2:04) By Great Lakes Crossing. (2:06) Okay. Auburn Hills, Michigan.

(2:07) North on Baldwin and then West Bloomfield, Orchard Lake in Maple. (2:10) Okay. So two in the Detroit area here.

(2:13) And then I work nationally, coast to coast, seeing clients, whatever it takes. (2:16) Yeah. That was kind of where the, where did Chuck Edwards get on my map was talking to a (2:24) fellow that knew you and said, hey, do you know Chuck? Chuck actually hops on airplanes and,(2:28) you know, will do the interventional style coaching, consulting, counseling, (2:39) like you see on TV, right? I mean, the actual… (2:42) Full addiction interventions is one of the services.

(2:44) Unbelievable. So give us kind of the overview. I know you said you dropped out of high school.

(2:51) Got expelled from high school and dropped out of college. (2:54) Okay. (2:55) And then I went to rehab at 20, how old was I? 23 years old.

And that’s when this (3:02) passion was first birthed in me. I was put here to help people change their lives for the better. (3:08) Didn’t happen immediately.

It was, it was birthed early on in my early teens. Finally arrived here. (3:14) So you’re a, you’re an eat your own dog food sort of guy.

You’re practicing what you preach. (3:20) You’ve, you’ve been through the, the drudges yourself, fought the demons and are here to, (3:27) here to talk about it and here to teach from it too. (3:29) A hundred percent.

People often ask how I do what I do, which we get more into. I’ve been there. (3:35) I get it.

I know what it’s like for life to be handed. I know what it’s like to be in a psych (3:39) ward. I know what it’s like to want to kill yourself.

I mean, I know what it’s like to get (3:43) arrested and go to jail. I know what it’s like to have to call your dad again, get you out, (3:47) all that type of stuff. So it gives me that ability just to slide in and do what it takes (3:53) and have that compassion and understanding for the people that help.

Great. So, so let’s get into it. (4:01) You know, sober 25 years.

Yep. So you’ve been walking the walk for 25 years of, of, of being (4:08) clean. You told me about some different groups and things.

I mean, you, you telling me about (4:16) subcultures that I never even knew existed in terms of people live in life like that. And where (4:22) do you want to get started? What do you want to like, where do you want to go? You want to talk (4:26) about? Well, most recently, I don’t think I shared this one with you yet. I hopped on a plane and I (4:30) went to, where in the world did I go? Middle America.

Middle of nowhere. I flew in. Call it (4:37) Oklahoma? Yeah, basically.

Yes. Well, we’re in Oklahoma. Flew in and had to get a mentally ill (4:43) guy out of jail.

We’ve been in there two and a half months, solitary confinement with schizophrenia. (4:48) I had to befriend him in the jail cell and get him out of there. I got him back to Michigan (4:53) to get them the care they needed.

Wow. So nothing great about me. It’s just that when there’s a need, (5:00) I feel got to act.

That’s what you were made to do. Unequivocally, I was put on the planet, (5:06) do what I do. Something like that just works and flows for me.

Love it. And by chance, (5:12) I didn’t know this when I took the, it was a contract job. I took it.

He’s at a place up in (5:17) Holly. I’m in Clarkston now. So now the dude’s permanently residing 20 minutes up the road for (5:21) me.

I continue to go see that guy and that relationship with him. What goes into a conversation(5:26) like that? I mean, so, so first of all, actually you, you call it a contract job. So tell me what(5:30) a contract job is.

And then, and then just kind of walk us through what is a, what does a discussion (5:36) look like for this? So I got my private practice, my own clients, and then companies will contact me(5:41) contract work. Hey, you want to do this? You want to do that? Can you do this? How do we solve this? (5:46) We’re stuck. What do we do? Type that’s where the counseling, coaching, coaching, consulting, (5:50) kind of flipping into more of the consults, all the roles kind of intermingle with each other.

(5:57) What a company called a, or just situation. I, I, one thing that I perceived, I don’t know if I ever (6:02) tested or know if it’s factual. I think I’m kind of pegged in my industry that Chuck’s crazy enough.

(6:07) He’ll do it. Which is true, you know, and they called, this is a situation like, let’s go. (6:14) And then they said, we’re going to hire security.

We don’t really know enough details about this. (6:18) And you’ve got a 10 hour drive in a car with a guy. We don’t need security.

This is good. That’s (6:22) what I’m meant to do. And we did bring security.

That’s yeah, it all comes together. So you, did (6:27) you hop on a plane, fly down there and then, then rent a car to drive back? Or what did you do? (6:31) I flew down, slept for the night, went to the jail that morning, did the whole bailing someone (6:37) out of jail thing, which is the whole kit and caboodling on itself, that, that process. And (6:42) they brought us into the jail, went into the cell.

Guy was in a two man cell for three people in it. (6:48) He slept underneath the bottom bunk on the floor. Guy that I was coming to help.

And he didn’t, (6:55) it took me a minute to convince him it was even his day of freedom. Get him to go, type thing. (7:00) What are some of the words that you said? I mean, did he even know, did he, (7:03) did he have a preface knowing that you’re coming? (7:05) He had no idea.

He thought he was going to die there. He, he just been there and this was stuck (7:11) two and a half months. Two and a half months.

And he was in and out of then solitary while (7:14) he was in there. He was in solitary the whole time, 23 hours a day. (7:17) Okay.

And then, and then, and then ended up with the three guys though. How did that work out?(7:22) Yeah. That, how that happened? I don’t know.

I just showed up to do what I needed to do, (7:27) but how did I broach it? Or how did I greet the guy? So my brain tells me that most people that (7:32) are in jail, down and out, um, severe mental illness, stuff like that. Many would say, not me, (7:39) but you know, those are the dregs of society. Those are the people.

So what’s my MO? The second (7:44) I see this guy, I’m going to hug him. I literally did. Did a fist bump kind of check.

And then I (7:49) went in and did the last thing most people would do to bridge that gap and, you know, cross that (7:54) bridge and all right, let’s, let’s get talking. I darn near showered the guy. He didn’t, you know, (8:00) whatever I got to do to, to make it work for the client, to achieve what we need to do to (8:03) get someone well, I’m going to do it.

And how much time did you get beforehand (8:08) information maybe from his parents or from, uh, the, the, the folks who brought you in from the (8:14) facilities? It’s funny. I got a call a week prior, Hey, here’s something coming up. Maybe (8:20) it might come together one day.

Would you do it? Absolutely. Three days later. Oh, Friday.

(8:26) What are you talking about? That’s the nature of my life though. It’s boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. (8:32) I’ve gotten calls at five 30 into the gym and I’m on the red eye to LA, walk back in my house, (8:37) change everything.

And I’m gone for two weeks. Just, it’s going back to, it’s what I was put (8:42) on the planet to do. And it just, it works for me.

So, so you talk to this guy, you get them, (8:49) you get them out of a jail cell, clean them up, walk them out the door. First, (8:56) here’s the rental car we’re rolling. Like just walk, walk, walk through step-by-step on that.

(9:00) And, and some of the, some of the things that you had that you encountered, right? Where, (9:05) cause I’m assuming he didn’t just bro out with you immediately. And then that was it, (9:09) your friends for life. There’s probably slipping in and back, uh, having to gather trust a couple (9:16) of different times throughout that, that whole interaction.

Walk us through some of that. (9:21) Yeah. Continual, like positive reinforcement.

Like today is your day. You are getting out. (9:26) We’re getting you to the help you need, getting you the help you need.

We’re not going to jail. (9:31) We’re not going to another jail. We’re not going to get you the help you need.

(9:34) Did he want the help? (9:35) Um, at that point he just wanted out of jail. He didn’t really know what he wanted type thing. (9:42) And we were probably five doors deep into the jail.

Um, got out, got in the car and then it’s (9:48) like assessment time. Assume the best be prepared for, for less than the best type. Don’t really know (9:53) what I’m getting.

Um, type thing. I sat in the back with the guy, um, doors locked. Um, the child (10:01) locks on, I’m in the back, the security guy’s driving and, uh, going to assess Chuck’s either (10:07) going to sit back here for 10 hours with a student, or we’re going to determine that (10:12) we’re good to go and don’t need to.

We wrote it out for about two hours. (10:15) And then we made a stop for food or gas or something that he and I talked right quick (10:19) and good to go. And I bounced up front and then, uh, just treated the guy like a normal human being.

(10:25) Need to go to the bathroom. Let us know if you want to eat and whatever you need,(10:28) one of the name of the games in those situations, whatever you need, tell me, I’ll get it for you. (10:32) As long as it’s not hard drugs or something’s gonna get me in trouble.

I’ll go buy it for you (10:35) to keep you happy. Content type thing. This dude must’ve gone through five, um, energy drinks.

(10:41) Oh, really? (10:41) Or I drive this, this thing. I found out, um, he liked pop music, something that isn’t my thing, (10:47) but we listened to pop music for 10 hours. And on that channel on XM, they play the same like (10:53) 12 songs for 10 hours.

Cause it’s what this dude was going to help him get there. (10:58) That’s great. Yeah.

And was there no way he was hopping on a plane? (11:01) Correct. Okay. Yeah.

I’ve had a few of those. (11:04) That’s a thing. Um, someone is in such rough shape.

They either don’t want to, (11:09) or they technically can’t, you know, can’t fly commercial where we get creative. Um, (11:14) either driving like this, gotten private planes, get someone from A to B, stuff like that. (11:20) Wow.

Yeah. So, um, normally we start out with the whole kind of bio of, of bring me from, uh, (11:26) you know, from birth to, to where you are today, but we started in with a story. So let’s, (11:30) let’s go back.

You know, you kind of teased us with it, with a few of the things that, (11:34) that give us stories that we want to hear about, right. Of dropped out of high school, (11:38) got kicked out of high school, dropped out of college a few times, walk us through some of that (11:42) and what was going on in your life at the time. And then, and bring us up to present day.

So, (11:47) so tell us some stories. So I was a troubled kid. You say to say the least, um, third grade on, (11:54) I was, I was a troublemaker.

I was getting in trouble at school, getting suspensions, (11:58) detentions, failing classes, none of that. Um, and that didn’t stop. So they kicked me out a (12:04) couple months before graduating senior type thing in hindsight, side note, if you will.

(12:09) Um, I got a hundred percent on all the standardized testing, go to Lansing to get awards from the (12:15) governor, but I’d fail all my school. They didn’t have the checks and balances. When would that (12:20) have been in the eighties to do today to catch the kid that learns different for the, I don’t know if (12:25) sexually smart, but that has a higher IQ or whatnot, that just the normal system doesn’t (12:29) work.

It didn’t work for me. And I just checked out and never checked back in. Um, elementary (12:35) middle, by the end of middle school, started using drugs and drinking like that.

High school, (12:41) full blown into my addiction drinking. Um, most days at school, um, we’d get milkshakes, (12:47) put vodka in there. That, that was our thing to hide it.

Um, drugs started creeping in the women, (12:53) the shopping, just kind of this whole cyclical thing of do anything. I could didn’t know it at (12:56) the time. I know today, and I could just do escape reality.

Didn’t know myself. I would ever, (13:02) ever means high school, the legal trouble started to happen. Um, minor in possessions and weed, (13:07) you know, charges and stuff like that.

Um, to finally get kicked out almost for graduation, (13:14) the insanity ensued, went out to Colorado. Like, well, this, you know, (13:18) Oakland County isn’t having it. My friends are all going away on a little mountain college on (13:22) Colorado would set me, um, went out there and just continued.

I skied, um, more than a hundred (13:29) days. My freshman year failed that year, freshman year of college. Um, at that point I was probably (13:35) drinking a fifth a night.

Oh, no kidding. I drink a gallon of water plus a day, one to two gallons (13:40) of water a day. It started in 95 when I was drinking a fifth a night, I had to drink that (13:46) much water to live.

I just never stopped drinking. That’s where it’s spurned. Um, where it started.

(13:53) And then, uh, did you grow up pretty privileged? I grew up in Bloomfield. Very, very privileged. (13:59) Yeah.

That’s, um, interesting. You mentioned that it’s something I’ve been spending time (14:04) on intentionally on my own wellness type thing. I didn’t know struggle like probably most people,(14:10) I assume did in life.

Um, and didn’t understand or know or realize that like struggle and (14:17) difficulty in life is like normal and okay. Took me a while, like later in life to get there (14:23) because, you know, I grew up very well. Parents took good care of me.

(14:26) Do you think you were creating struggle along the way? (14:30) A hundred percent.(14:31) Maybe, maybe not knowing why you were doing it. (14:33) A hundred percent.

It’s like a therapist question. I’m like, who am I talking to? (14:37) A hundred percent. So what I was doing- (14:40) My doctorate diploma on a different wall here.

(14:43) I a hundred percent was creating all that turmoil as a young person. My dad was absent(14:48) working his butt off. I didn’t know that till my mid thirties where he was.

I just assumed he (14:53) was absent. Um, stuck at home with my mother. Young kid needs his dad more than anything.

(14:59) Um, I was a tough kid, made it tougher, tough for my mom to deal with me. And this pattern (15:05) developed and I discovered this stuff in rehab and therapy. I did therapy for about five years.

(15:09) But discovered the circular cyclical pattern. Um, when I got in trouble, mom would get angry (15:17) and go to town on me, rightfully so. But I got some attention and some love.

Awkward way, (15:23) but I got it. We’d have our blow up. Do something to get in trouble, whether outright trouble, (15:29) go blow up the credit card, do whatever.

Fight with mom. Little kid person gets his (15:34) needs met to have mom’s love and attention. Things chill for a minute.

Repeat. (15:39) And for a decade, 100% was subconsciously intentional type thing. (15:46) Yeah.

You see people doing that, uh, in their adult lives and in their work lives and things (15:51) like that as, as adults too? Big time, especially in like marriage stuff is one example. You know,(15:57) there’s an art and a science and a dance, if you will, to make marriages work. You got the(16:01) best of circumstances or maybe not the best.

And it’s recognizing patterns like where are my (16:08) subconsciously sabotaging communication or whatever it may be with my spouse. If I can get (16:14) that awareness that I’m subconsciously doing it to meet some other need that’s not getting met, (16:19) I can undo that, that mess, arrive at more of a healthy playing field. If you will.

(16:27) Wow. Okay. So Colorado doing it up, skiing a hundred days a year, (16:33) failing out of school because of that.

Cause you, you can’t ski and study at the same time. (16:37) I’m assuming. Yep.

Okay. I did that freshman year, came home to Oakland community college (16:42) as my punishment. My sophomore year failed out there.

I would just drive to campus and get high (16:46) in the parking lot and go home. And then, uh, was sitting in a home, I guess the summer after what (16:53) would have been my sophomore year living in my parents’ house in Bloomfield, hanging out in the (16:57) basement. And I’m like, wait a minute.

All my friends are away at school. They’re about to (17:00) bounce. Bloomfield’s about to stink really bad.

Again, I need to get out. I didn’t tell my parents (17:06) I re-enrolled to the same school, Western state college of Colorado. It’s now a university.

Um, (17:12) got in a probationary status and a month before school was supposed to start at the dinner table. (17:17) Me, my mom and dad, my sister was at U of M being a good kid. I said, hey, guess what? I’m (17:21) going to Colorado.

Fight a whole shebang. And, uh, I won. We’re going to go back.

Second dinner’s (17:29) over. My dad pulls me in the home office. He says, son, that was really clever.

That was cute. What (17:33) you did in there. Good job.

Just how you worked the family over. He goes, you’re not driving your (17:39) car across country because you don’t have a license. So I’d gotten a DUI and didn’t have a (17:44) license.

Um, we hadn’t broached my mom on that, but I was still driving. So cannon worms here. (17:51) So the, you talk disease, they talk about the illness runs in the family.

So I was the addict, (17:57) the easy one, but anyone around addicts, ultimately going to have false themselves, (18:01) or sick. So I had a DUI, didn’t have a license. I was still driving.

So we didn’t have to break (18:08) the news until this day. Dad pulled me in. Great.

You won that argument. You’re not driving your car. (18:15) I’m not taking your car out.

If you want a car, you need to tell your mom, (18:18) you don’t have a license. You need to convince her to drive you to Colorado. (18:21) So you have a license.

You have your car challenge accepted. Let’s go. My mother (18:26) drove my 1985 Volkswagen van again from Bloomfield Hills to Gunnison, Colorado, (18:32) so I could have a car and flew back home.

Wow. I was, I was a horrible kid. I was a train wreck.

(18:40) How’s your relationship today? Phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal. Um, years and years (18:47) of working on me.

I did three and a half months inpatient rehab, a year of the intensive outpatient. (18:52) I followed exactly what they told me to do. In total, about five years of intensive work on me,(18:59) done to the damage I’d done to myself, a little bit of damage done to me, (19:02) to now today have a phenomenal relationship with both my parents.

My dad runs everything except (19:09) for my client facing stuff. He, he handles. Oh, excellent.

We are there. My mom and I are (19:14) totally tight. Great.

Yeah. So you can just tell them this was all, this was all just (19:19) research and development for the business of today, right? Yeah. I hadn’t heard that.

I like (19:24) that. Yup. Uh, well, you’ve got a lot of, uh, interesting, um, I don’t know, a style and a (19:31) philosophy to you, right? Um, you know, it’s a little, when I first met you kind of a little(19:36) bit hard to peg down.

So what it was this Chuck guy do, you know, and I learned from the stories, (19:41) right? From the, the intervention type of stories. Um, you have a life mantra, do what’s right and (19:47) the rest will fall into place. Is that, uh, absolutely.

Is that the number one for you? (19:51) A hundred percent. Even with finances, do what’s right and it’ll, it’ll work. (19:55) Cause we talked about some of the things that you do, like you don’t have contracts with your, (20:00) with your clients.

Right. Um, and you feel like that’s the right thing to do. (20:04) Yeah.

You price on a sliding scale based on what the person can afford typically. (20:09) Yup. Um, very customizable.

Yup. Um, so talk about doing the right thing, (20:16) especially from a guy who’s, who’s learned how to do, you know, you were rewarded and, (20:20) and did the wrong thing a lot of times, but, but learning that the straight and narrow is the (20:25) better path. Talk about that.

My brain immediately goes to faith walk. (20:31) So early on in getting sober, um, became a person of faith and that’s been a big guiding, (20:36) not big, the guiding post or whatever, my true North, if you will, doing, doing what’s right. (20:43) Um, something else that you learn in, in recovery, the 12 step programs, they teach you, (20:47) you know, you work the 12 steps, right? Only a couple of maintenance things got to do the (20:51) rest of your life.

One of which is live an absolutely honest life. 110% (20:56) or else you’re so susceptible to relax. And I, other than that being easy, if you live (21:01) open and honest, you don’t got to cover your lies type thing.

It doesn’t make sense to me. (21:04) I didn’t want to. So I’ve been, it’s got to be tempting though, because I mean, (21:09) everybody that I’ve ever encountered in my life, that’s had addiction problems is the best liar, (21:14) the best sales person.

I mean, and there was even a show on TV. They showed, um, I can’t remember (21:21) what it was on a Netflix or HBO or something like that. The guys that run the, that ran the, the, (21:26) the police officer scam thing where you’re, where they’re calling asking for money.

The majority of (21:32) those people were current addicts that were, that were selling because they, they just knew (21:40) how to work people. Yep. It’s inner, it’s inner, that side of me is still there.

I have to (21:45) intentionally not let it be present. Case in point, like my wife, I get, I used to be in sales. (21:53) So I got that prowess, if you will.

Now I get people to do stuff they don’t want to do for a (21:57) living. Like walk out of jails and jump into cars for 10 hours. My wife to not be the master (22:01) manipulator at home.

I have to just shut it, be like a normal human for that to work well. (22:08) What about just in your, in your work life? Um, you know, how do you, how do you balance that (22:13) there? You know, well, let’s say you walk up to you, you have a, you have a client, you know, (22:18) is in perfect, in terrible need. Right.

And you could probably, you know, with your, with your (22:24) addict brain and master manipulation, you could probably talk them right out of their wallet if (22:30) needed to, or want to do. It’s the conscious. Just, I just, I don’t want to have any of that (22:36) gnawing feeling, no, I didn’t do something right.

Um, it’s just simple for them. I have, there’s, (22:43) I mean, most, probably more hours of my life than not are what could be compromising situations. (22:50) Close rooms with people, traveling with people.

Um, I’m a cash business, whatever we got going (22:57) on there, I get credit cards. I have clients give me allowances, different stuff, you know, (23:02) allowances for helping them. A lot of ways I could go shady with type thing.

It’s just not (23:07) who I am and not someone going back to what we mentioned a little bit ago, do the right thing. (23:13) And it just works out. Do the right thing.

Something goes south with a client. Every (23:18) once in a while, this happens. All right, great.

You know what? Here’s all your money back. (23:23) We’ll talk, we’ll find resolve. And then you know what? I didn’t deliver.

Here you go. (23:28) That’s great. I don’t care what amount it is.

That’s great. You also, I mean, one of the things (23:34) we talked about was the meeting people where they are, uh, on their journey. So especially (23:40) dealing with people with anxiety, depression, suicide, you know, drugs, whatever it might be.

(23:46) And you could, you could give us some stories here. You know, you, you talk about going to the (23:52) places with people. So obviously on an intervention, we all understand what that (23:55) means.

You got to go get the person out of their current situation, get them into some sort of (24:00) form of rehab. You know, we’ve all seen the TV show. So we, we get that and they may or may not (24:05) know that they’ve hit bottom, but, but their family saying, Hey, it’s time you’re getting (24:09) cut off.

Otherwise, um, you got to do this, the, this, this 24 by seven access and also the (24:18) non-traditional nature of the work that you’re doing. You know, we talked about the person who(24:23) can’t get on an airplane or the person who can’t go into the building or the person who can’t (24:29) leave their room or whatever. Um, most therapists are either meeting somebody by via telehealth or (24:37) in an office setting.

You told me that you, you actually will go right there with them. (24:43) So if they’re stuck in their bedroom, you’ll go sit in their bedroom with them, (24:46) try to get them to come to the kitchen. If you can get them out of the kitchen, (24:49) you might get them to the front porch, get them to the front porch.

You might get them to walk down (24:53) the street, get them to go down to the store, you know, and then keep building upon it before you (24:57) know it. They’re traveling the world again. Um, talk to us about that and how that’s different (25:04) with what, what you’re doing and why that works and maybe how we can also relate it to business (25:09) and life in other ways.

This episode of the BLTNT podcast is sponsored by Oxium, business IT and (25:23) cybersecurity designed to outsmart chaos. Empowered by Juniper Networks, automate your(25:27) network with Juniper Networks and the Mist AI platform, the world’s first AI driven wired and (25:32) wireless network. So typically I kind of walk through an example of like new client or new, (25:45) new case coming my way.

I get a call from whomever, either the direct, you know, family or (25:50) the person themselves for a contract job. Here’s the, you know, details, here’s what’s going on. (25:55) Then I got a snapshot and then I come up with a plan.

How, what are we going to do here? Um, (26:02) and just like you’re saying, you know, I, I don’t shy away from just going and doing whatever (26:08) it takes to affect change in someone’s life, to achieve whatever there is they’re looking (26:14) to achieve. Um, going to them, bedrooms, hopping on planes, it doesn’t matter, just whatever (26:21) it’s going to take. There was a client out in, um, I don’t know where it was somewhere (26:26) South of here, Metro Detroit.

Um, young person in their twenties, parents were terrified of them. (26:33) There’s different stuff going on. Oh, and it was parents were apprehensive for me to meet with them.

(26:37) I’m like, I’m doing what I was planning to do. I’m not afraid of your son, whatever we got going on. (26:43) And I, we scheduled meetings a couple of times.

They canceled, I think out of their own fear more (26:48) than anything. Finally, I get there. Now, where is he? Oh, he’s all up in his room.

We haven’t (26:52) seen him in 28 hours. Great. Do you care if I go to his room? Just literally walked up, (26:56) knocked on the door.

Hey dude, good to meet you. I’m Chuck. Another person that wouldn’t be the (27:01) most, um, shined upon people in society.

One of those immediately, boom, bring it in big old hug. (27:09) Just the last thing he expected, the absolute last thing mom and dad expected, (27:13) but it just bridges that gap in people where they are often in their life, (27:19) worst moments of struggle. So where’s that guy today? He is, um, we’re actually, so that came (27:26) about, uh, probably a month ago and we’re actually, what, what is today? Thursday, Thursday.

I will (27:34) actually be getting an update later today. Wednesday. Is it Wednesday? It’s Wednesday.

(27:38) Yeah. So today he’s actually got, there’s a pivotal meeting he’s having right now. We’re(27:41) going to place them in some longterm care, two different places.

He needs me doing those (27:45) meetings today to decide where we’re going to get them probably by the weekend. Great. (27:50) Yeah.

And this is a guy that’ll probably need, um, some kind of lifelong support at some level. (27:59) Great. Yeah.

And do you stay involved, uh, with them, uh, at this point? I do. Okay. Yep.

Yeah. (28:06) I like to, I like to, it doesn’t matter. I like it’s what they need.

(28:10) It organically happens that I ended up staying in touch with (28:16) most everybody. I could probably like everyone I work with. If it’s the client themselves (28:22) in touch with them, often I wrote, there’ll be family roped in or some kind of other work I’m (28:26) doing with other people.

I get to meet family, stay in touch with them. If it’s a really young (28:31) person, I get updates from the parents for years. Um, if somebody I’m big on, like if someone (28:36) crosses my mind, I just think there’s more than just crossing your mind.

And I’m like, (28:39) I messaged a client that I first met, um, I don’t know, eight years ago. I hadn’t talked to her in (28:45) probably a year. I messaged her earlier this week.

Hey, how’s life going? And to my shock, (28:51) amazing, amazing, amazing, amazing. And I’m starting to think about marriage. Wow.

Just (28:55) like, and I met this girl, she was curled up in a ball ready to kill herself. And like, it’s,(29:02) it’s amazing. That’s awesome.

Yeah. But that was the, um, the 29 year old fighting demons (29:09) now planning to get engaged. That’s the, is that, is that who that was? Bingo.

(29:14) So what’s some of the, um, employee type of group work that you do or employ one-on-one (29:20) type of stuff? Like, like talk about business owner ever call you up and say, Hey, I need some (29:26) help with people. Yeah. Kind of from a couple of different fronts.

Um, the compassionate business (29:31) owner of when we, we know some in common that I’m speaking of, um, the compassionate business (29:38) owner that wants to help employees that really just need to be terminated. I think struggling, (29:42) struggling employees, Chuck, come in, do whatever you gotta do. Send me a bill and see if we can’t (29:48) help this person somehow, some way.

And then we typically with business, you sometimes have to get (29:54) creative. You know, uh, an owner or a manager can’t say, go get therapy or go see someone. So (30:01) cleverly tee it up appropriately, honestly, above board.

And then I go and do my thing. Um, on that, (30:07) on that front with a truly struggling employee who should just probably be terminated, but they’re (30:11) going to try something on the flip side. Um, we’ve got a key employee that we don’t want to lose.

(30:18) We absolutely want here. Something is suddenly off or we’re giving a promotion say to like, (30:26) you know, management team. He’s been great for 30 years.

Step into a management meeting. He’s (30:31) a bumbling idiot. Chuck, we can’t figure it out.

What’s going on. Um, tee it up. We’re going to (30:38) make it work.

Players are going to pay, start engaging, figuring out what is in the way. (30:42) One example on like on that, um, figured out that this guy, the example I gave 30 years, (30:50) he was fine. He went into the management team.

Now he’s a bumbling idiot. It turns out he had, (30:54) um, nuclear family trauma stuff from his dad that just had some wonky mindsets and some (31:00) confidence issues and stuff like that from childhood going. We identified that we worked (31:05) through that the dues off and so on and crushing it.

So all of a sudden he realized I’m manager, (31:10) but I don’t really, I’ve got some stuff in my head that’s telling me I’m not good enough for (31:14) that particular role. I was great as an individual contributor. I’m not as smart as the other guys (31:18) in this room.

I haven’t been here. I’m not a, you know, I don’t have the title stuff like that. (31:22) Yeah.

And we cleaned that up and he was off and running. I think we’ve probably had 10 episodes(31:25) where imposter syndrome comes up, uh, here and it’s a major, it bought some, it’s a major thing (31:32) that goes, just goes on with, with people everywhere. Right.

Is that they think I’m not, (31:36) I’m not good enough. And does most of that stuff relate back to something in childhood? (31:43) Um, most often, whether it’s family, often mom or dad, usually not intentionally. I’ll (31:48) give people an answer to the doubt.

It’s the way they are. Where would their kid just didn’t (31:51) imprint a positive, helpful message if, you know, to put them out into life with (31:56) and or some other kind of more traumatic thing where maybe it’s bullying, um, or a one-off (32:02) incident that just gave someone a totally skewed, you know, outlook on life or bent or narrative (32:09) when they’re young. And then it starts to interrupt their life over.

(32:14) And in traditional therapy though, I mean, what, what I’ve always found remarkable about the (32:19) stories that you’ve shared with me is that there’s a, there’s an expedience to what you do (32:23) and kind of a solution mindedness where it’s like, Hey, we’re going from A to B, you know, (32:28) A is where you are. B is better than where you are. And we’re going to, we’re going to (32:31) celebrate that.

And, and, and really you continue to try to work your way out of a job where I’ve (32:36) seen in traditional therapy, people can go to that same therapist week after week for those 50 minutes(32:43) or whatever it is saying the same complaints, complaining about the same parent, complaining (32:48) about the same sibling or, um, spouse or significant other, and nothing ever changes. (32:55) Um, what’s different with what you do and how action oriented it is. (33:01) I’ll try to take you through an example.

So, um, get a new client, whatever situation is (33:07) one to three meetings is what it’ll take for me to get the full scoop. Usually it’s one meeting. (33:11) Okay.

Um, on that note, um, I don’t meet for 50 minutes. I mean, for as long as it takes, (33:15) I usually block three hours off of my calendar. I might go sit with someone.

And after 30 minutes (33:21) like, Oh, you’re, you’re occupied with work. Like, how do you go do work? And we’ll connect again. (33:25) Or we might go for three hours.

What I have found is usually at that hour mark is when stuff gets (33:30) good. So I just kind of leave it open and let organic, you know, healing start to occur if you (33:36) will. So a new client, new case, gather the Intel, um, usually one meeting.

And then I will go back (33:43) from that. I’ll have, I take copious notes and then I will brainstorm, soak it in process it. (33:49) And then I come up with a treatment plan for the individual.

My treatment plan is very intentional. (33:55) Um, what do I lay out the, the presenting struggle, the solutions facts, which is what, (34:03) um, Chuck Chuck’s taker facts, which is what I believe about said individual, (34:07) because usually they think crap about themselves. So I come in and bolt with the facts.

(34:11) And then, um, what’s our plan of attack. And I break it down. Here’s what I believe is we(34:17) should do immediately.

And here’s all the other stuff identified that we need to get to at some (34:21) point. And I tee up the verbiage, um, and my delivery back to the client of empowering them (34:28) from the get-go. So I come up with what I, my takeaway, and it’s kind of fun.

I give it to him. (34:34) I go, take your time and read this. Let me know how I did.

Most people just blown away for the (34:39) first time somebody gets me and we only spent 55 minutes together. How did you get me? Let’s put on (34:45) the planet to do this. So it just kind of works for me.

I give him the treatment plan and then I, (34:51) the empowering part, what do you want to do? I know what to do. But if I tell you what to do, (34:58) I’m kind of like everyone else out there or teachers or parents or whomever, here’s what (35:03) we need to do. How are we going to work this thing in a way that works for you and your schedule (35:06) and your life? Are we doing it here? We doing it in Harbor Springs, like stuff like that.

(35:11) And keep defaulting back to, this is your life, your world. I’m going to get you there,(35:16) but help me get you there in a way that works for you. And then because I’ve put it out on paper, (35:23) I don’t play my cards is the right word, but I’ve laid out what I’m seeing.

And then it gives me, (35:28) as well as them, the accountability or metrics to circle back to, where are we on this thing? (35:35) We decided that we’re going to tackle this three things first,(35:38) not happening. Do we need to pull one of these out and shift some, just totally organic.(35:44) It’s great.

I’ll be funny here for a second is, you remind me of Dr. Leo Marvin, (35:53) your baby steps approach. But it’s really, you made your steps, not baby steps, meaning (36:01) it’s a stepped approach, but you keep going back to the person and saying, (36:05) you’re almost checking in and asking, what do you have the capacity to do at this point in time, (36:10) right? As opposed to saying, Hey, you’re on step one, I need you to be at step five by Wednesday. (36:15) Well, if the person says I can get to step one and a half by tomorrow, and then you’re celebrating it(36:21) with them instead of saying, gosh, it would have been nice if he got to four, five.

(36:27) So I think yours is yours is, you know, your steps, your speed (36:31) and, and meeting the person that’s, that’s what I feel is kind of more unique here. (36:36) A hundred percent. And one of the things I do is I’m immediately looking for what are some (36:42) immediate wins we can make happen.

Yeah. That like one to 1.5, right? I mean, if that’s our win, (36:47) that’s our, that we’re going to be good with that. Yeah.

So people off, you know, (36:50) you come to depending on what you got, I suppose you just got to, you know, childhood trauma, (36:53) you’ve blown up your own life. You’ve been through divorce, second marriage, (36:56) you got a mess. That’s a mountain.

All right. I get it. What can I do to, to affect some real (37:04) quick change, to give you some bravado, some confidence and start building upon the little (37:09) things to get to the bigger.

That’s great. You know, I also like the fact that you spend this (37:16) inordinate amount of time getting to know the person we, we, we worked with a marketing company (37:22) who helped us with some of the, some of the work that we do here at our company. And they put us (37:28) through what they called an immersion exercise.

And they had a number of people in the room, (37:33) multi-hour lots of sticky notes everywhere. And you know, a lot of it is, is you’re discovering a (37:39) lot of stuff yourself, but, but they’re learning in that, in that confined space. And I felt like (37:48) that approach was so much stronger because if you do an hour, right, you do an hour, (37:53) if we do an hour together, then you go off on your day and I go off on my day.

And then we try (37:57) to reconvene then next Wednesday for an hour. We’ve had a lot of life happen in between a lot (38:03) of things that we’ve forgotten. And that continuity, it’s almost like the first half hour is (38:07) rebuilding from the previous hour.

So you’re never really getting, you know, true continuity (38:12) throughout. You know, even on television shows, they show a recap, right? And so, you know, (38:19) we’re, we’re human. We can’t we can’t remember everything.

And so I like the immersion that (38:24) you do with the, with the client. And I feel like that, that must be really impactful for you. (38:30) Super impactful.

And I even go a step further than that. Oftentimes I’m going to be, it’ll (38:35) occur to me, there’s other people in this person’s life that could give me a lot of intel that will (38:39) help me affect change for you the fastest. Sure.

Hey, what do you say? What do you think about me (38:44) getting with your wife? Yeah. What do you think about me talking to your kids? (38:47) What do you think about me talking to your employer? Whoever more intel, the better (38:51) to affect change the fastest. Yeah.

I’ve always felt like, you know, people go to a therapist to (38:55) talk about another person, but what good is that ever doing? Unless the other person is (38:59) a part of the conversation, right? Because you’re only going to have two, you’re only going to hear (39:03) one side of the story. You’re going to start to team up with that person. And how do you, (39:07) how do you really affect change? You know, and maybe, maybe the majority of therapy is not there (39:13) to affect change.

I mean, is that, is that a possibility? Is there a design behind it? A (39:19) design flaw maybe even? Don’t know. Oh, come on. I thought, I thought for sure you’re going to say, (39:25) yeah, those suckers can’t do it.

Only I can. That is my sentiment. I struggle.

I don’t have (39:33) exactly what you’re saying. Affect change in someone’s life in 50, 55 minute buckets once a (39:38) week. It doesn’t work for me.

So yeah, the system’s broken in my opinion. Did somebody come along the (39:45) way with you though? Like, like, I mean, I know you feel like you’ve got a lot of divine intervention (39:50) coming into you that that’s, that’s helping you, but, but a lot of what, something along the way(39:55) had to, had to have some, someone or something had to affect you along the way. Who, who, (40:00) or what was that? Yeah, it was actually a gal named Susan Webster and her mom, Sandy Champ.

(40:06) They lived in Bloomfield, Telegraph and Maple back in my addiction years in the nineties. (40:13) I was unemployable. So I started doing landscaping, self-employed gig and showed up to their house.

(40:20) I don’t even know how I got the nod from them, but I did showed up one day for another landscape bid (40:25) and Susan opened the door, the smoking hot blonde. I mean, I’m in my late teens at some (40:30) point in her twenties and whoa, okay, I can do whatever this woman needs. Ironically, at the (40:36) same time she looked at me, this guy is so sick.

I’m going to save his life. I was like, years later, (40:43) we figured this, literally that’s how it happened. Wow.

So, and she played the card well. She knew (40:48) where my brain was and she used that to the highest degree. Became my number one client, (40:53) Susan.

And then Sandy, her mom happened to be a retired psychologist. They knew what they were(40:58) doing with this dude. I didn’t know.

I just was, there’s a hot blonde. I’ll do whatever she wants. (41:05) Started doing tons of work at their house.

And then I hadn’t thought of this till right now. (41:09) Susan came alongside me in my profession and taught me everything about horticulture, (41:16) all the plants, all the fertilizers, all the pruning, all the transplanting, (41:19) everything to the highest degree you could possibly want. Then she steered me to go get (41:23) my Michigan Master Gardener certification.

There’s a big to-do in that world, in the (41:28) horticulture world. So she put time and energy into me to help me get better, met me where I was (41:35) in a sense. I worked for them for some years until my life fell out.

They never intervened. They (41:44) never pointed out my problems. They put up with me and loved me to the nth degree, even though I (41:51) pooped on them more than I did anything.

Became very close. I started watching the house for them, (41:57) their dogs. I would see them in Florida.

I would move cars, different stuff, a lot of stuff with (42:01) them. They were just loving me, but they were intentionally loving me. And then when my life (42:08) imploded, what was it, late 90s, I got a speeding ticket in Detroit.

(42:13) I was in such rough shape towards the end of my addiction, they told me, (42:18) Chuck, you know, don’t go to this court date. Can’t handle it. I’m like, it’s the law.

You (42:22) gotta go. And I didn’t listen. Went to the court date in Detroit.

I got stuck in traffic, missed (42:28) my court date. And on whichever freeway it was in downtown, I had a mental breakdown. Instantaneously (42:35) in that traffic jam, I snapped.

I was going to kill someone or kill myself or both. (42:40) Get my way back up to their house. They’re like, yeah, Chuck, told you you shouldn’t go.

I’m like, (42:45) forget that. I need to go to psych ward because I’m not right. I’m going to kill someone or kill (42:48) myself.

And they knew what psych ward meant. I didn’t. They still try to talk me out of that.

(42:57) Just stay here. We’ll take care of you. We’ll get you through this.

You got right, Chuck, (43:00) you don’t want a psych ward. No, I need that psych ward thing. I’m not right.

I need to get, (43:03) I need to be put away. I need to be out of society type thing. My family’s home during (43:08) that same conversation, packing for like a 10 day trip to California, family trip.

(43:13) I’m over at Susan and Sandy’s house, losing my stuff. Family’s home, wondering where I am (43:18) type thing. And long story short, I wouldn’t give up on the psych ward.

And so they finally (43:26) got ahold of my dad. And so they were taking him up to St. Joe psych ward. What do you mean? We’re (43:32) going to California tomorrow.

Well, we tried, but he wants to go change your plans, dad. Yeah. (43:38) And, uh, he met us there and whatnot, did the whole psych ward thing.

And then the second I (43:44) walked through that sixth floor St. Joe hospital in Pontiac, Michigan, and I heard that door lock (43:48) behind me, it all clicked. Oh, that’s what Susan and Sandy were talking about. Chuck doesn’t lock (43:54) like being locked up.

This is the worst thing ever instantaneously. My brain pulled out of that (44:01) depressive, homicidal, suicidal place. I was, I’ve never gone back there again.

I don’t think (44:05) I ever will from that one experience. They were dead on. Right.

And I got to work really quick (44:09) finding out about the, uh, uh, AMA, leaving against medical advice, did the whole oil (44:15) Bloomfield brat kid thing to get out of there. But those are the people that loved me and poured (44:20) life in, um, to get me where I am today. After the psych ward, they helped my father understand (44:26) I needed help.

Sandy went to bat, broke out DSM fours and different diagnostic stuff to help my (44:31) business-minded dad understand that his son was dying from addiction. Um, and then finally they (44:36) did the handoff. My dad flew me down to rehab in Florida.

And that was where the, the, the real (44:41) cleansing happened was in rehab in Florida then at that point. Yeah. But you needed that breakthrough (44:46) time with, with those folks that, that poured India, huh? They saved my life unequivocally.

(44:51) They a hundred percent saved my life. And they, um, the most selfless, loving, (45:00) caring, like God send people ever come across. No reason to help.

They, for some reason they picked (45:06) me. That was the one to help. And what was rehab like? Rehab was, um, was nuts.

I know a lot more (45:16) about rehab today than I did then at 23 going, um, what in hindsight, what I found out is I went (45:23) to rehab in 2000 and that was when they were, I guess, pioneering today’s modern day rehab experience (45:32) pioneering, meaning they were just screwing around and throwing everything at patients or clients to (45:38) see what would stick, what they could do ethically, how far we could push someone before they literally (45:42) died and didn’t just break stuff like that. I was in rehab at that time. Thank God saved my life.

(45:48) I think rehab is way too soft today. Um, way too soft. Um, I had health recovery, everything (45:55) beat into me, um, with a whole bunch of psychological manipulation, crazy, even questionable (46:03) stuff, but it worked and I love it type thing.

Examples would be, um, anything they could just (46:12) to shake you up, put your wrists on, put your watch on the other arm. I carry a water bottle (46:17) wherever I go. A truck, that’s your security.

Give us your water bottle. You can’t have that. (46:23) Um, every Sunday night was the McNally rally.

Michael McNally, very prominent, well-known (46:28) therapist down in Florida. McNally rally meant all 60 of us inpatient clients, patients, wherever (46:34) we are, had to go into a big room, sit on the perimeter in a chair and Mike would show up, um, (46:41) for the meeting was undetermined amount of time. And he would come in and just start sending us (46:44) out and yelling at us and screaming at us, setting up fights between patients and stuff for some (46:50) therapeutic benefit to get us all riled up and all this kind of jazz.

Um, if you miss the bus, (46:56) you had to walk like five miles from the residence to the treatment center. If they didn’t like, (47:00) if you got in trouble, you got a therapeutic discharge, you were kicked out Friday afternoon, (47:05) no wallet. I don’t think there were phones then.

No wallet, no ID, nothing. Go survive for three (47:10) days and then come back on Monday and prove to us why we’re gonna let you back in. On and on.

(47:16) That was the stuff. Wow. Yeah.

Saved my butt. I wouldn’t want it any other way. Yeah, it was, (47:23) it was insane.

That’s intense. Yeah. So what, what, um, what could you, what could you teach (47:30) the average, uh, CEO business leader based on the things that you learned in rehab? (47:37) I’ve been hearing a lot lately about the knock when an employee knocks on your office door and(47:42) says, got a minute.

And you immediately know it’s some sort of it incident, but oxium it can help (47:47) whether you’re having a problem, need consulting and upgrade or a managed it approach. They focus(47:52) on preventing cyber attacks and proactive solutions that deliver results. My friend,(47:57) Matt Lauria and everyone at oxium are ready to help before or after you get the knock visit (48:04) oxium.com and let oxium it help you outsmart chaos.

Powerlessness and acceptance comes to mind. (48:12) Neither of those things resonate. So you accept any of those, you’re going to be the employee (48:17) what from rehab is going to help the business owner.

(48:21) I like acceptance. I think that’s great on many levels. Um, a lot of the work I do with people, (48:29) a lot of my personal mo, what I do or make myself do is accepting life on life’s terms or (48:37) accepting things to be exactly the way they’re supposed to be in this moment.

Um, when a person (48:44) can arrive at that acceptance, when a business owner can accept whatever is going on with (48:49) employee, um, the company, the business, the whatnot, realizing we can only do what we can (48:56) do. And when we, we have done our part, it’s a matter of accepting where things are at (49:01) that allows us to find a lot of peace, a lot of calm. Um, and if we got peace and calm, (49:08) that brain oftentimes is going to slow down and give us better ability or clarity by which (49:13) to do what I’m supposed to be doing, managing my company.

(49:16) That’s really funny that you say that. I, I, um, I have a laminated sheet that I, we had a, um, (49:24) uh, business trainer, uh, might want to call her, uh, in that she talks about this book that was (49:30) written by James Fisher, that, that talks about various stages of organizations and starts off at (49:35) stage one, which is a pure startup zero to five or zero to 10 employees. And then goes up to (49:41) kind of what a mid market organization would be, which is like 170 to 500 people.

(49:47) Okay. So stages one through seven with different gradients in between there. And I have that (49:53) laminated in my briefcase at all times.

And I pull it out probably twice a week because what, (49:58) what she shows is that in every category there and whatever phase you’re in, and we’ve got about (50:02) 50, 51 people that work here. So we’re in phase four and it shows you all the problems that are (50:10) the most, most common problems for a company this size. And it’s like, okay, we, we can, (50:15) we have those.

This is normal. We’re exactly where we’re supposed to be. Shows you the problems, (50:20) obviously for the stages prior.

And it says, okay, you got to make sure you’re clearing out (50:23) all those. Cause otherwise you’ll, you’ll continue to slide back and forth and won’t, (50:27) won’t really move forward. Um, but that’s my reminder, right.

Is exactly where I’m, (50:33) where I should be now. Am I perfect by God? No. You know what I mean? My, (50:38) my level of acceptance is, is, is not where it needs to be, but, uh, but things like that, (50:44) tricks like that, tools like that are one of the things that helps me.

So I’m glad you glad to use (50:49) the word acceptance and, and exactly where you’re supposed to be. Cause we need those reminders (50:54) consistently. Yep.

And I like what you shared. It’s something I do in business with people I’m (50:59) working with. Um, after I get the data dump, I hear all their demons and everything going on.

(51:06) Almost always, either way I deliver what I’m about to tell you. I let them know that they’re(51:10) aligned. Their, their struggle is explainable by outside circumstances.

Their calamity of life (51:18) totally makes sense because of all these outside forces. You are aligned. You’re aligned to a (51:25) place you don’t want to be, but thank God you’re aligned.

We just need to pivot your alignment to (51:28) somewhere you do want to be as where, if you got money in the bank, it’s going to be more (51:33) happily married. Your kids love you and all this stuff and your life’s imploding. You don’t align.

(51:38) That’s a real problem. That’s the, typically the psychiatric permanency, stuff like that.(51:44) Gotcha.

So I do let people, boom, sorry, your life stinks. They are lovingly than that. The (51:50) good news is you’re aligned.

You make perfect sense to me because you make sense. We can fix. (51:55) That’s great.

Yeah. How does that align? So the attribution error, right? The, the attribution (52:00) errors is a psychological phenomenon that says when I see you do something stupid, I attribute (52:07) it to you being stupid. When I do something stupid, I attribute it to outside circumstances.

(52:11) Is there a malalignment there where, where you’re having to remind them that, Hey, again, (52:17) you’re not stupid because when, obviously when somebody falls into that, that self-judging, (52:22) you know, negative talk, that’s, that’s one of the places you’re pulling them out of. (52:26) 100% is something I got to remind people of a lot. Often by the time you get to someone like (52:31) a me or other professional in this sphere, the personal often have a bunch of, you know, (52:38) errant mindsets or errant thought patterns or lying thought patterns or mindsets or whatnot.

(52:42) That’s usually developed earlier on in life. And those mindsets left unchecked, brought into (52:49) adulthood that has you sitting in front of me. You’re not thinking right about yourself(52:54) or you’re not making right decisions or so on and so forth.

I got to remind you, Hey, (52:59) that’s your dad doing this. You remember what your dad did when you guys dynamic young, (53:06) that stupid thing you just did is directly because of him. I’m going to give you a pass, (53:11) give you several passes.

Eventually I’d be like, dude, come on. We talked about that a year ago. (53:16) Right.

But reminding them because if I’m screwing up in life, I suck. I’m bad. I’m (53:21) thinking it out of myself.

I’ll do this. Not you. It’s what your dad did to you.

(53:24) We’re working on fixing what dad did. You’re not dumb. Yeah.

You’re a result of what happened. (53:30) I like the, um, that you called out too, that the, that the parents, um, (53:35) don’t necessarily, they’re not necessarily doing anything on purpose per se. I mean, (53:40) obviously there’s some that are, that are bad people, I’m sure.

But for me, (53:45) we have older kids and younger kids and I always apologize to the older kids. And I say, boy, the (53:49) younger kids got a way more refined version of me than you got. You were the, you were the (53:55) practice counts, man.

You got the, you got the bad dad, you know, as far as I’m, when I’m judging (54:00) myself on my parenting and, um, you know, not everybody gets to, to go through and have two (54:06) sets of kids and, and, and practice twice and get better at it. So I think that it’s, uh, it’s great(54:12) that you give the, on the, on the, on the average, you give the parents the, the passive,(54:17) they didn’t do it on, on purpose, right? Your dad didn’t work extra hard to screw you up.(54:23) Right.

Right. He thought he was doing the right thing. He put me in Bloomfield with a pool.

(54:26) Right. With, I mean, he could have picked anywhere in America. Exactly.

Yeah. Didn’t (54:30) make sense until I was 35, but yeah. Um, that interesting on that same note, like with the (54:35) parents or whatnot, um, I will often, I know I’m saying two different things here, but it’ll, (54:40) it’ll make sense.

I will often. So if I identified its parent wounds or whatnot’s going on, (54:45) I will often throw the parents under the bus in a sense, in the same breath that I’m bringing (54:49) them back from under the bus to let said person I’m working with. No, this isn’t your fault.

(54:56) Correct. Type thing. But then I’m also bringing the parents back.

Guess what? We don’t get a (55:00) playbook. You know, I’ve met your parents or I talked to your parents on the phone. They’re not (55:05) evil.

They did the best they could. You have a right to be angry. We’ll deal with that and get (55:09) processed, but they did, but they didn’t type thing.

And that can bring a lot of healing to (55:15) people just to start to have that simple, very simple awareness. Sure. Another thing that you (55:20) taught me about, which, which I hadn’t, I had no idea.

We talked about subcultures kind of earlier (55:24) when we were first sitting down and you, I said, you know, Chuck, you told me that that music is (55:31) such a big part of your life. And I’m like, isn’t that like saying, you know, I’m sober, (55:36) but beer is a big part of my life. You know, it’s, it’s almost like I love hanging out in (55:40) bars, but I don’t drink.

You know, it seems a little dangerous. So explain to folks what, (55:46) what that looks like for you and the community that exists around sober living and, and, and music. (55:54) Yep.

So when I got sober, I grabbed a, a, as you get a sponsor, someone that helps you figure out(55:59) how to do the sober life. And my sponsor, Joe Lewis down in Florida, his, he was pretty laid (56:03) back. I don’t know if I ever thought of that till right this second, actually.

That was 25 years (56:10) ago. So why I picked them, they teach you. So I was a 23 year old kid.

Sponsor, look for someone (56:16) that has what you want. The dude lived in Boca. He had a boat and a hot wife.

I said, you’d be (56:22) my sponsor, dude. You got like, that’s what it wants. That’s how I met him.

He was pretty laid (56:27) back. His one hard rule was no places, no establishments with alcohol for one year. (56:33) Music.

I bet it should have died. Like, what are you kidding me? How do you do this? (56:38) I wanted to live, wanted life to get better. I listened to him.

I didn’t see music for a year. (56:44) Um, I, the 366 day, I think I was at music was rules. There was safe ways to do it when you’re, (56:50) you’re newly in recovery.

Um, and music to music festival type of stuff or concerts, (56:57) cover bands at bars, all the above. Okay. Whatever.

Love it all. Love it all to that degree. (57:03) Um, in fact, I’m flying to Nashville and a couple ended this month to go see three nights of music (57:08) down there and bands.

Yeah. That’s my thing. Um, move back up to Michigan a couple of years, (57:15) sober and, uh, down to Florida, I would do music.

I would bring my sponsor or someone else in the (57:19) program and just make it safe that way. Move back here. And I went to a recovery meeting down in (57:25) Royal Oak.

I met a guy named, um, Michael Steinberg. He’s an attorney. His name in the (57:29) music world is Mike.

Oh, but he is a professional. He is an attorney. And he turned me on to what I (57:35) call today.

Rock and roll recovery. Um, it’s, it’s not only it’s that term, it’s not an official (57:40) thing, but we call it rock and roll recovery. The jam band scene starting with grateful dead (57:45) in the sixties and then fish widespread panic.

Um, freeze McGee’s the whole jam scene today, (57:51) Billy strings and green sky on and on and on. They’ve developed a sober following that’s (57:56) attached to the band more or less in the sixties, deadheads. They couldn’t do any more LSD or (58:01) whatever they were doing.

They needed a break. They formed a recovery group called the warfrats (58:06) and it was dead heads that didn’t want to leave tour or stop going to music, but wanted to be (58:11) sober and have support of other people. And the warfrats recovery group was, was formed.

Now, (58:16) all those bands since then and more and more happening, like by the week are getting their (58:20) following, which I’ve been a part of since 2003, any, anything that comes to the Midwest or (58:27) Michigan or that I can get to, if I’m traveling, having to be somewhere, I will help the concerts, (58:32) have a table at them and in the lobby of the venue or somewhere in the venue, it’s manned by two (58:37) people. That’s part of the sorghum sober organization for that band. And you’re there to (58:40) not tell other concert goers what to do, but to be there to support those that are looking to do (58:44) concerts, drug and alcohol free.

And then at the set break we have a real quick meeting. (58:50) It was huddle up. It’s like an A meeting, do a little bit of share.

We pass a balloon (58:55) to yellow balloon, right? Yellow balloon. Okay. Is that the, that’s the color? That’s the symbol (59:00) for the rock and roll recovery crowd.

Okay. So all the tables have yellow balloons and then (59:04) often you’ll go into the show and they would get a healing one in there. Actually some crazy (59:08) person.

She was holding one in the show on the floor, wherever it is, you see the yellow balloon. (59:13) That’s what the sober people are hanging. Oh, funny.

It’s really cool. So will we all not, (59:18) we can’t unsee that now. Like once, once we go to pine knob or wherever we go, (59:23) music venue, we’re going to, we’re going to see the yellow balloon now.

(59:26) You’ll notice it now. And what’s incredible is I travel a ton for work. This side of the other,(59:31) I’ve gone to music either planned or on the fly coast to coast across America.

And I’ve got (59:36) other sober people there. I don’t need it today, but it’s great to know that they’re there and I (59:40) can be there for other people. I’ll go hang at the table.

Whatever. It’s just, it’s the coolest (59:44) thing. That’s awesome.

Yeah. And then locally the scene, the local jam cover scene in Metro Detroit, (59:53) even all the partiers now know I’m a part of that. And it’s like, they wouldn’t let me touch (59:59) anything.

Even if I wanted to not to think for anymore, but like literally I was standing in (1:00:03) line with a guy getting into somewhere down downtown a few weeks ago. And I wouldn’t alcohol(1:00:08) and wristband. It’s good.

I know this guy only in music named Steve. Chuck, you don’t drink. What (1:00:13) do you need a band for? Sometimes I like to buy other people drinks and it’s really awkward when (1:00:17) I don’t have one, but I’m like, thanks dude.

Looking out. Yeah, it’s cool. That’s awesome.

(1:00:23) I always ask people, you know, what, what are you reading right now? Podcasts you’re listening to or (1:00:29) watching or, you know, people you’re talking to, what, what are you inputting into your brain (1:00:36) lately? That’s, uh, that’s helping to shape your, your recent thoughts, your recent, uh, (1:00:42) you know, feelings. Most recently I have gone, uh, jumped both feet into the, uh, breathing and (1:00:48) meditation thing. I have known of it.

We’ve all known of it. I’ve avoided it. Um, laughed at it.

(1:00:55) If I’m honest for years, uh, meditation meant take an app and me, you know, um, I’ve had it pushed (1:01:01) to me for many, many years. This wasn’t my thing. And then someone recommended a book called 10% (1:01:06) happier by Dan Harris.

Not someone, a therapist named Kevin Ram, a buddy of mine, a 10% happier (1:01:12) by Dan Harris. You know the book. Um, so the quick and the app too.

Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Quick (1:01:19) little, you know, backstory to the book. He had a, uh, Dan Harris had a panic attack live on the (1:01:23) air. Yeah.

He was a news anchor or something, right? Yeah. Like the ultimate horrific moment (1:01:28) for an anxiety suffer. Um, the book, I assume he, I listened to it.

I assumed it was his voice. (1:01:35) I’m going to be, it’s his voice forever. Just love the way that the audio book was done.

I actually (1:01:40) listened to it, drive it back and forth to Nashville. Um, and started applying the techniques (1:01:46) and stuff to big takeaways from it. So the, the breathing and meditation, I’ll get back to you, (1:01:51) but the 10% um, better was a huge help for me solidifying and confirming what I do professionally.

(1:01:58) And then for my own life, you come to me with a mountain of problems. That’s a lot to move. (1:02:06) Let’s just find something.

Yep. Let’s start building a little bit of traction. (1:02:14) Your dad trauma that if we can do a bunch of other stuff, by the time we get you into trauma work, (1:02:18) you’re going to like yourself.

You’re going to love yourself. It’s going to flow type thing. (1:02:21) So that, that notion solidified, you know, at least according to Dan on the right track there, (1:02:26) just find something and the rest start.

Well, I think too, that when, when you’re, (1:02:29) when you’re here, right. Um, as someone once explained to me when I was, uh, going through (1:02:35) some stuff as they said, you know, let, let’s say here’s normal and here’s exceptional. (1:02:40) You’re down here, right? You’re sub normal.

Right. And you’re looking at that, (1:02:45) the mountain that you have to climb to get out of it. And it seems damn near impossible.

Right. (1:02:50) And so they’ll say the, the person said to me, I’ll have the faith for you. I know you can’t (1:02:55) see it right now.

I’ll have the faith that you’re here. All I need you to do is just do the one (1:02:59) step at a time. And the 10% happier does make it the, the concept of it to be okay.

I can get 10% (1:03:07) better. I can’t get a hundred percent. Right.

I mean, you could never believe, you know, (1:03:11) when you’re in those places that you could be a hundred percent better and what a, what a great, (1:03:16) you know, uh, eat the elephant one bite at a time type of mentality. (1:03:20) A hundred percent. And on to your original question, the, the breath work and the meditation, (1:03:26) um, in practicing, start, you know, doing the stuff that book says, and I’ve expounded my (1:03:30) search outside of that on, you know, how to breathe, how to meditate, stuff like that.

(1:03:35) I’m go, go, go, go, go. I presume you’re kind of the same type thing. Just always,(1:03:39) always on the fly, just sitting and chilling.

Is it my thing? Not from an anxiety standpoint. (1:03:45) I don’t know. It’d be 80 deep.

Like none of that sort of thing going on. I just go for whatever (1:03:49) reason. So the idea of stopping, calming myself, breathing, meditating, doing that.

It’s just so (1:03:56) foreign and uncomfortable. And who has time for this? The book calls that out like over and over (1:04:00) again, all the excuses that he blows my, his BS is use that repeatedly blowing the excuses out of (1:04:06) the water. Um, as I started taking breaks to intentionally breathe for a minute or five or (1:04:13) however long I’ve got type thing, using certain breathing techniques and bringing myself to that (1:04:18) place of calm brain slows down.

Um, I started noticing a few benefits that got me into it more (1:04:25) and more and more where it’s a regular practice of life. I, um, mental clarity, um, reason with (1:04:33) my thoughts or with life or what’s on the agenda or my tasks or stuff going on. When I get to that, (1:04:40) that, you know, place of calm, if you will, in that meditative state, it’s almost as if I have a, uh, (1:04:46) like a whiteboard or virtual whiteboard.

It’s like, here’s all life, here’s business, (1:04:50) here’s marriage, here’s kids, here’s family, all this stuff. And I’ve calmed down slow enough (1:04:56) where I can like that there and move that there. That makes sense there.

Okay. This, (1:05:01) this perceived source of stress. Now that I can think about it really isn’t stressed at all.

(1:05:06) Um, things like that. And it just gives me that space, um, just to realign stuff or reassess (1:05:12) things in a good way. Always leave better, feeling better after type thing.

I find, I don’t really (1:05:21) test, but part of laying into sleep, you know, the fact that I’ve potentially bringing myself to a (1:05:30) end of the day and rest time. I know how to get to a place to unrest and get myself to sleep. (1:05:35) I also find one of the things I’m lately a lot on the breath.

Um, I read the Bible a lot in my faith (1:05:40) practices. Bible talks a lot about breath. Um, I’ve recently the past couple of few weeks, (1:05:46) maybe a month, um, incorporating breath into like frustrating moments or what could be a (1:05:52) frustrating moment of life.

Okay. So-and-so did this or kid did that, or wife did that, (1:05:58) or I got this email, like whatever it may be. And it’s one of those is (1:06:02) going to push away from my desk.

I’m just going to breathe. I might even do a (1:06:11) breathe on something intentionally. Um, either breathe something apart, breathe light, whatever (1:06:17) it may be 30 seconds, a minute of that just rearranges everything for me of that, whatever (1:06:25) the frustrating thing was.

That’s great. Yeah. And you know, so I, I, one thing I will say is, (1:06:30) you know, you mentioned faith, but then you also met about meditation and breathing.

(1:06:34) I’ve heard a lot of people that are conflicted with that. You know, that, that, that one is,(1:06:38) one is not, uh, one is not compatible with the other. So my closest friends would argue it to (1:06:46) the nth degree meditation, that yoga, the, all that is, is no bueno.

Christian should never do (1:06:50) the other. Um, I’m not seeing that stick. So yeah, if I, if I go either by the, by the way, (1:06:58) if I go to yoga and I’m focusing on Buddha, yeah, that’s probably a contrast with my faith beliefs.

(1:07:04) I can go to yoga and think about Jesus or think about nothing or think, right. Choose whatever (1:07:09) you want to do while you’re there. It seems like a strange argument to me, really.

I mean, I mean, (1:07:14) I guess I understand where they’re drawing parallels of like, Oh, it sucks you into some (1:07:18) different type of world or whatever, but, uh, it doesn’t, it doesn’t, doesn’t jive for me there. (1:07:24) So Bible says that his people say Christians or whatnot are supposed to be literally everywhere (1:07:29) in everything to some degree, even the dregs of society, even the dark places, (1:07:35) someone’s called to be there. Yoga ain’t going to kill us.

(1:07:40) All right. Good. Good.

What’s, uh, what’s the next five years look like, uh, for you in your (1:07:45) practice? Uh, what would you say? That’s, that’s a good one. Starting an intentional marketing (1:07:53) effort for the first time ever. Um, Adrian Kehoe, um, over fulcrum digital is helping me launch (1:08:00) some very intentional, uh, marketing starting in Oakland County, um, anxiety solutions would be one.

(1:08:07) So I’ve never marketed. It’s all been direct referral, but that’s a new one for me there.(1:08:11) Um, we also are in the beginning stages of digitizing what I do, um, on the anxiety(1:08:18) solutions front, coming up with like a, uh, not like with a, a package, some kind of electronic (1:08:23) offer for it that could sell globally one for seven thing like that.

It’s got drip offerings (1:08:30) to have me, um, be part of it to whatever level type thing there. Um, those are the two main (1:08:38) going right now, five years. So I’m trying, so five years, I’m 48.

So it’ll be 53. (1:08:43) I’ll be good working as much as I do. I don’t, I don’t mind working.

That’s why five years there. (1:08:48) Great. So a little bit of scalability, leveraging digital, uh, is, is the real point, um, which I (1:08:54) think is smart, you know, especially if you’re going to continue to leave your mark and really, (1:08:58) uh, you know, grow the effects that you have in the world.

So I think that’s fantastic. (1:09:02) Um, with regard to your solutions around anxiety, um, I think what we’ll make sure (1:09:07) that we do is we’ll share in our podcast, a link to the video that you did, um, regarding the, (1:09:14) um, uh, how to get ahold of anxious thoughts and that have been holding you hostage. (1:09:17) Yep.

(1:09:18) Cause I think that was about an hour talk that you did. (1:09:21) Don’t remember. A lifetime.

(1:09:23) Yeah. But yeah, but now we’re talking that we’ll, we’ll put the link here so people can kind of (1:09:27) see some of your work in, in action and, uh, and get different ways to contact you. So (1:09:31) anything else you want to share with everybody and, uh, before we, uh, before we part.

(1:09:35) Thank you. (1:09:36) You’re welcome. (1:09:37) Yeah.

(1:09:37) Yeah. (1:09:38) Right. (1:09:39) All right.

We’ll keep doing what you’re doing. (1:09:40) Appreciate it. (1:09:41) All right.

Thanks Chuck.