(0:00) Welcome to the BLTNT podcast. I’m your host, Matt Loria, serving up real stories of business, (0:05) life, technology, and transformations. You’ll hear from interesting people about big changes (0:09) from career shifts to life-altering decisions and the innovations that help make it all happen.

(0:14) It’s about sharing those light bulb moments, pivot points, challenges overcome, and the journeys (0:19) that inspire us to think differently. If you’re on the lookout for insights to propel you forward, (0:23) stories that resonate, or just a bit of inspiration on your next BLTNT move,(0:27) you’re in the right place. Let’s dig in.

All right. Welcome to this episode of the BLTNT (0:41) podcast. I’m Matt Loria, and I’m sitting here with Doug Manns, the CEO of Mann’s Lumber and Millwork.

(0:46) Yeah. Nice being here today, man. Yeah.

Thanks for being here. (0:49) Yeah. Very cool.

This is great. We just met recently, (0:52) so this will be nice and fresh for everybody. My cousin, Pete.

(0:55) Yep. He said to say hi. (0:56) Thank you.

So very cool. (0:58) Good stuff. So let me give a little intro, and then you make sure you fill in any voids if I’ve (1:04) missed anything here.

Fourth generation CEO of Mann’s Lumber. You guys are a three location, (1:10) $180 million organization today. 125 years under your belt.

(1:15) Yeah. Big year for us. (1:16) Pretty wild.

And already preparing for the next gen, for fifth gen here with Megan, Nick, (1:24) and there’s- Multiple other kids. (1:25) What you said, there’s seven to eight others that could also come in as fifth gen if they so choose. (1:32) That’s awesome.

(1:33) So that’ll be, yeah, we’re excited for that. And it makes it easy because obviously family,(1:39) we’re all on the same page, and they care. My dad always said, when your name’s on the door, (1:45) you care more.

You bet. (1:46) And I think that is the reason we’re successful. And our employees love it, our customers love it, (1:52) and we say our number one strength is that we’re family owned.

(1:56) That’s great. (1:57) And when I say family, it’s all employees. We’re all family.

It’s not just Mann’s family. (2:01) The couple of conversations we had, you referred all of them as family. It’s very great.

(2:06) It’s big family. (2:08) Our location here, where we shoot, obviously is in Rochester, Michigan. And you guys (2:13) recently teamed up with another family owned organization that you guys purchased.

(2:19) Yeah. Dilman Upton was a 100 year old company. It’s kind of interesting.

We’d see Brad and Todd (2:24) Upton around, and we were always very envious of the business they had grown and the customer base (2:31) they had. And we always said, God, if we could ever get to that side of the town, because we (2:35) grew up down river and then the west side, Ann Arbor, Canton area. And we said, boy, if we could (2:40) choose one place or one location, it would be Dilman Upton.

So we would go to golf outings and (2:46) have a beer, and we’d start talking. I’d say, if you ever think about selling, let us know, (2:50) let us know. And then they didn’t have any… In our industry, succession planning is a really (2:55) tough situation because a lot of kids don’t want to come in this business.

It’s not a (3:00) glorious, or it’s not technology, and it’s not AI, and it’s more hands-on business. So (3:07) a lot of kids, they go to college and they come back and they said, it’s not for me, mom and dad. (3:13) So Brad and Todd didn’t have a succession plan.

And I think they felt like, well, you know what? (3:19) Mansons are good people. We’ve been around them for 20, 30 years. We know who they are.

(3:25) We know the most important thing to the Upton brothers were they wanted someone to buy that (3:30) was going to take care of their employees. And they probably left a little money on the table. (3:36) I don’t think they did.

I think we paid damn good money. But anyways, I think they probably, (3:41) you know, they said more important than the money is the employees have always taken care of us. (3:45) And that’s who we are too.

So we fit like gloves, our principles, our morals, (3:50) our love for our employees. It was all the same. So we knew it would be a (3:53) easy transition.

The employees didn’t know. And we talked to them and now they’re like, (3:59) this is awesome. You know, you guys are just like family.

So it’s been a great transition. (4:04) Yeah. Probably, you know what I’m assuming what they wanted to avoid was kind of that private (4:08) equity move.

Yeah. And is that where a lot of people are going in your industry? (4:13) We have seen a huge over the last 10, 15 years, private equity, U.S. LBM, you know, Carter, (4:21) Kodiak, Builders First Source, they’ve all come in and bought these companies. And, you know, (4:26) they play nice for about the first 12 months because they got to figure out what’s going on.

(4:29) And then after that, you see a huge change. People lose their jobs. And so I think we have a great (4:38) story to tell.

We’ve gone and what we always did is I always said, you know, a cup of coffee (4:42) doesn’t cost you anything. Yeah. You know, it costs you a couple of bucks.

And so I went to (4:46) most of the local lumber dealers in this market and said, when you get ready or if you are ready, (4:51) I’m not pushing, but I want you to know we’re interested. We respect the business you have. And (4:56) when you get ready, let us know.

And we’ve, we’ve had four, you know, we’ve, (5:01) I think it’s been four or five acquisitions in the last, you know, five, six years. (5:06) So we bought a couple of trim shops that were same thing. We just call them and, hey, you know, (5:12) you have a great business and we’d love to, you know, if you ever get ready and they’re like, (5:16) yeah, you know what, we’re ready.

We want to go enjoy life. And, you know, you guys are good (5:20) people. So we’ve been fortunate when we get that business handed over from our parents, our (5:26) fathers, the fourth, the fourth generation, my cousin, Pete, Anna, my brother, Jim, my cousin, (5:31) Chris and myself, they had left us in great shape.

I mean, we really were blessed that they (5:37) handed over a business that was thriving, great reputation, paid their bills, you know, everything (5:41) you could ask for. So it really was a good transition. And I think because of that, you (5:46) know, we’d always say to a business like them, go ask the vendors or go ask anyone about us.

(5:51) And they’d come back and they’re like, God, everyone just raved about you. There was never (5:54) a bad. And so, you know, it’s how you treat people is how you’re going to be perceived and how they (6:00) talk about you.

So, you know, the golden rule, treat others as you want to be treated and live (6:05) by it every day. That’s our, the Oxium business name is AU is gold and Axiom is rule and (6:10) pushes together the golden rule. I didn’t even know that.

But, you know, the legacy piece of (6:22) what you’re, of what you’re doing is really interesting. And I think that’s probably what (6:25) shines to the people that you’re, that you’re making this proposition to, which says, you know, (6:30) if, or when you’re ever ready, give us a call. And they, I think when, when you said you were (6:34) envious of the Upton brothers for what they had built, I’m sure that people are envious of the (6:40) legacy piece that you guys have built and that you’ve proven that you can absorb another entity, (6:46) keep it within its culture, which, which the culture already matched with yours.

So I’m sure (6:51) that makes a big difference. And, you know, it’s, it’s a, you’re on the 125 year time horizon (6:58) versus the, you know, three to five year time horizon that, uh, that a private equity is (7:03) looking at, right. A private equity model is going three to five years.

They’re either they’re, (7:07) they’re acquiring a bunch more packaging it up again, selling it to another private equity for (7:13) their three to five year move. And it’s all financial engineering and you’re, (7:16) you’re legacy engineering versus financial engineering from what I can see.(7:20) So that’s a great, uh, great point is so when we buy these companies, everyone says, well, (7:26) are you buying us to sell us? Are you building this up? Cause you want to get bigger than you (7:29) guys want to sell.

And we say, I’ve got, I have five kids. Two of them are already in the business. (7:36) My other cousins have young kids and we’re like, no, we’re here.

You know, I’m, I’m still got 10 (7:41) years. My cousins each had 10, 15 years. We’re here for the long run.

This is nothing about, (7:46) um, you know, but you know, and we talk a little bit is we just feel we’re stewards of this business. (7:52) Yeah. Yeah.

We’re not, this is not our right to sell it. It’s our right to work here. It’s our (7:59) right to, you know, get up every day and have fun with our employees, but we’re stewards of this (8:04) business.

And, uh, you know, our goal is to leave it better than we found. And I think, you know, (8:08) that’s something that whether we were duck hunting, fishing, walk in a park, you know, (8:13) is leave it better than you find. And I think if we all can think that way, whether it’s your (8:18) relationship with your kids, your wife, your whoever, but leave it better than you found it (8:22) pretty simple rule too.

And, uh, so that’s the other thing. And you know, when I started, (8:28) I remember going out, you know, are, are people going to wonder if, you know, like he’s got the (8:35) silver spoon, right. And I’m third and thought he had a triple.

That’s right. Yeah. And I’m like, (8:40) you know, so you do feel that when I’m sure my kids are, Hey, you know, everyone’s just going (8:45) to look at me and go, you stepped into a great situation.

You haven’t done anything. And I’m (8:48) someone who’s pretty driven and, um, that wasn’t going to make it for me. So my goal, and I had (8:54) someone look at me and said, listen, if you leave and it looks the same way, you didn’t do anything.

(9:00) You should like look at yourself in the mirror, but if you take this and run with it, make it better. (9:05) And my cousins and I had talked a lot about that and we can look at each other and say, (9:10) we’re leaving it better. Yeah.

And, uh, you know, my cousin, uh, Pete and Anna, (9:15) her father, Dick passed early in my dad’s past. And I said, I always say to them, (9:19) they’re up there going, you guys have done a good job. That’s that’s the reward.

And it’s, (9:23) I’m sure it’s really cool. Yeah. We had, um, uh, at least Fisher, she’s the chairperson of (9:29) nubs knob ski area.

And I always tell her there’s a feeling at nubs knob of that, of that (9:35) stewardship. Right. And, and you’ll walk around that place and you’ll see, um, like during COVID, (9:41) they opened up a, they opened up a deck, uh, they cemented a deck and put some fire pits in and (9:47) things like that.

And they didn’t heat the deck. So they had people out there shoveling all the (9:53) time. They ripped that as soon as they realized that that was a mistake they made.

Yeah. They (9:57) ripped it up and then put down the heated, the heated deck so that it would, you know, so that (10:01) it would melt. Yeah.

And you know, financially probably didn’t make a whole lot of sense, (10:07) right. But how did it make people feel? Right. How did it make the employees feel (10:12) and just little things like that, you know, or, or steps, you know, wooden steps, you know, (10:17) they could take that womanized board and leave it there forever if they really wanted to, (10:21) and let it get all marred up from the ski boots.

But every year, every two years, (10:25) they replaced those steps and you go, and it’s those little things that don’t make the (10:30) financial sense, but you know, they know it’s there. And so they’re leaving it better than they (10:35) found it. I think that’s what family businesses do.

They, you know, it’s not about the bottom (10:39) line. It’s also about how are we perceived? Sure. And I think that’s important to all of us.

I mean, (10:45) it isn’t, that’s the cool thing about family business compared to private equity. It’s not (10:50) all out the bottom line. Yep.

Hey, everyone wants to make money and we have to buy new trucks and (10:55) buy new stores and update our showrooms. I mean, you’ve got to be profitable in order to do those. (10:59) You got to keep the organism alive.

And we talk, we talk about that. (11:02) We have talked about that. But the reality is (11:06) our name is more important than the amount of money at the end of the year.

That’s what, (11:11) that’s what’s kept us going for 125. Yeah. Well, I mean, you talk about like the focus, (11:15) you think about people, I don’t remember what the exact statement or quote is that somebody says, (11:19) but it’s like, people don’t remember all the details, but they sure as hell remember how you (11:22) made them feel.

That’s right. You know what I mean? I think about, you know, we had built our house (11:26) through, uh, through Dillman. And, you know, do I remember every dollar? No, but I remember(11:31) when I came in there all sweaty and needed something and I had my house account and everything (11:35) was, you know, easy pre, you know, easy breezy, uh, you know, or had somebody there telling me, (11:41) Hey, you know what? Consider this, you know, don’t buy.

Why are you buying that? Right. Oh, (11:45) thanks for asking. You know, you know what, what if, what if you bought this instead? (11:49) You know, it’s like all those things.

They don’t, I don’t remember. Do they, (11:53) for an extra five cents or did they make me feel better? All I know is they made me feel good. I (11:58) have nothing but good things to say.

Right. It’s interesting. You say it.

Cause I have friends (12:02) who come in and like, yeah, I like to use. And I say, listen, this, it may not be perfect. And (12:06) like, it’s like building is an exact science, but at the end, we’re going to make sure you’re happy.

(12:12) Yeah. And at the end, like you said, you’re going to be smiling at the end. There could be a couple (12:16) frowns in the middle of it.

It just happens. It’s life. And you know, I tell my friends it’s, (12:21) it’s going to, but at the end, I guarantee you, no one’s going to try harder.

No one’s going to (12:25) care more. No one’s going to want you to have a smile on your face. And I think that’s how we go (12:29) to work every day.

That’s great. I’m going to tell a little negative story on that, on that culture (12:33) of how somebody made me feel. I was, I was negotiating a deal for a, for a little boat (12:38) earlier this year and went to a boat dealer up in Charlevoix, Michigan.

And the day that I was (12:45) going to close on the boat, they, they, the guy says, Hey, why don’t you look at this other one (12:51) as well? So we stopped off in Boynton city. We went and looked at that one. Then we get up to (12:55) the Charlevoix showroom to, to close on the boat that I’m looking at.

Another sales guy was showing (13:01) the boat and they sold, they, they created a bidding war right there. And I said, I said, (13:06) guys, this isn’t for me. This isn’t for me.

And guess what? Never going to buy, never going to (13:12) spend a dime here. And guess what? This was, this was the small boat. So you lost me for the big (13:17) crazy.

And I said, and I used the line with him. I said, you know what? You can tell me everything(13:22) you want about how, you know, this is, this is what’s fair. Or this guy didn’t say this or(13:29) whatever they did.

I said, none of it matters. I said, I know how I feel right now. Not forgetting (13:34) it.

That’s right. And so they were looking for one sale and they forgot about the lot (13:38) for $3,000. What did they give up in lifetime value of a client? Unbelievable.

I said, (13:44) you’re not going to sell, you know, so that, that’s something that we have to teach that to, (13:49) to our, you know, to our teams and make sure that we’re emulating that in everything that we do. (13:54) And it’s interesting because there’s times we’ll give solutions to the customer and we don’t make (14:01) a sale on it, but it’s taking care of the customer. And you’re going to remember that (14:03) forever.

You’re going to go, Hey, when I have a problem, I need to go back there. (14:06) Hopefully we can be part of selling product in that solution, but if we can’t, that’s okay. (14:10) We’re fine with that.

You know, I don’t know if you feel like this in your world, but I have to (14:15) imagine it’s similar to mine. You know, you’ll be at, you’ll, you’ll be at wherever, you know, (14:20) be at dinner or whatever with somebody. And he’s got some business that allows for these pockets (14:25) of large profit, you know, deals, you know, on this particular part, I could charge 300% markup.

(14:32) There’s no home runs in my business. And I imagine yours is the same. We are a commodity (14:36) based business.

You’re making a, you’re making us, uh, and that’s part of the challenge. Like (14:40) during COVID it was pretty crazy. It was, you know, a sheet of plywood that was always $15 (14:46) went to 45.

Yep. The problem is today that sheet of 15 or $16 is now 10. We’re, we are the only (14:54) industry has seen deflation over the last two years.

No cumbers cheaper today than it was (14:59) five years ago. So it’s a challenge. We’re like gasoline.

It’s commodity to everyday people. And (15:04) it’s somewhat, people are like, well, the tariff’s going to affect you. (15:08) It spooked people for a while this spring, but price wise, demand is going to always dictate (15:14) where the price goes.

It’s a high demand. You’re going to have prices go up. Low demand.

Like right (15:19) now, housing starts in the state of Michigan are off 20% from a year ago. Wow. You know what prices (15:25) aren’t going to go up.

There’s no demand. So, you know, the, the, the big mills, the private equity (15:30) guys may try to make a market, but there’s just isn’t one. So it’s interesting.

Those are our (15:36) challenges. You know, other products continue to go up. Things have come from overseas.

We’ve seen (15:42) some price increases and it’s been a challenge on some of the metals and whatnot, but yeah, (15:47) your basic lumber, it’s kind of been, you know, the other way. So if you’re thinking of buying (15:53) a building, a house, great time to do it. Well, you got my gears turned.

My wife loves a good (16:00) renovation or a good construction project. So I love it. I hope she doesn’t watch this anytime (16:04) soon.

Do you ever get, do you ever get pinched on that commodity side of things? You know, where,(16:09) where you’ve bought, you know, let’s say that lumber that you bought when it was 45 bucks on (16:13) the, you want me to expose my warts, don’t you? A little bit. I mean, go ahead. I wore that button (16:18) down shirt for easy reveal.

So when things were at $50 a sheet, I’m like, all right, well at the (16:26) time you couldn’t even get products. So you bought contracts that would say the month of October, (16:30) November, December, I get wood. I’m going to buy, I’m going to commit to a contract at whatever (16:35) the market price is.

Well, unfortunately we committed to the market price. We bought these (16:41) in and then it dropped like $30 a sheet. And so it was a hundred thousand dollar car hit and we had (16:48) three or four of them, you know, and you’re only, you’re going to sell them at what the market(16:52) bears, right? It’s not like nobody cares that you buy 50 of markets.

Exactly. I wish they did, (16:59) but it didn’t work that way. So yeah, you can get stung and now really nice lumber.

(17:03) This is really nice. Yeah. This is better than everyone else’s.

Not really. (17:09) Um, what other, um, what other trip hazards, uh, did you see along the way, you know, (17:15) whether it’s commodity buyer or well, our biggest, we’ve talked about, you know, (17:20) my dad always says the late seventies, early eighties when, uh, mortgage rates went to (17:26) 2021. Yeah.

Those were, I remember the stories. Uh, he’d say one day they shipped a house job (17:34) on a truck and the whole store stopped and ran to the front door and watched the truck leave (17:39) with his house because it was like the only house they shipped all year because who’s going to pay (17:43) 20% for a mortgage. I mean, think about that.

We were, you know, it’s like two and a half, (17:48) now it’s like saying, buy your house, buy your house on a credit card. So people walked from (17:52) deposits back then people, they, you know, they put, no one could build not a 20%. No one could (17:59) commit to it.

Yeah. Um, so that was a real challenge. And you know, there, we have cycles (18:04) in our industry.

It’s pretty every seven to 10 years, you’re going to have a year, you know, (18:10) 12 months to 18 months where it’s, it’s a challenge. Sure. It’s normal.

It’s what we (18:15) go through in our industry. It’s what we’ve gone through for 125 years. So we’re ready for it.

(18:20) But 2005 and six came and we had the financial crisis. Um, that was a, that was a challenge (18:27) for our industry. Um, yeah, we started at, I think in 2005, we had 25,000 housing starts in (18:34) the state of Michigan.

And by 2009, there was 2,500. So we were off 90%. We went from sales (18:42) of 80 million down to sales of 20 million.

We had 210 employees and six locations to two locations (18:50) and 60 employees. Wow. So we had 150 employees through that three-year stretch that we had to (18:56) let go.

And they were friends and family. And we’ve watched their kids and grandkids be born (19:03) and given them gifts. And it was, we, we cried, we hugged, but it was, we had to do the right thing.

(19:10) It was interesting during the process as a family, we sat down, we ranked, um, all employees, (19:18) all equipment. I mean, what’s funny is the most valuable employees weren’t the owners. (19:22) So I was going to have to get rid of myself before I got rid of really good employees.

(19:26) Um, luckily we never got there. We made the top 60, all five of us. So that was encouraging, (19:31) but, um, we ranked everything.

And we said, when, if, when, and if we get sales level of this, (19:37) then we’re going to have to do this. Meaning on the decline. So sales go down to this, (19:41) we’re selling the stores, this, this, we’re not going to renew these license plates where, I mean, (19:46) it was, we became the janitors.

We got rid of average service, janitorial service. We, we were (19:52) it. And, um, it was, I always say it was probably the worst thing that ever happened, but the best (19:58) thing ever, because as we go through this with our employees, we all came together as one and (20:04) we were all fighting for the same common goal.

And, um, I remember the one meeting we, we circled (20:10) 60 chairs in a circle. And I said, this was like, you know, the old days where you circle the (20:14) wagons and we got one less fight in those guys. And we’ve got enough cash to burn for probably (20:19) another 12 months.

And before the bank really gets ugly, they were not nice, but they were getting (20:23) even less nice. Yeah. And, um, to watch everyone come together and buying together, it was, (20:30) it was crazy.

Good. It really made you feel good. And now we’re bigger and better and stronger.

And (20:36) so we came out of something you think’s the worst moment in your life to going, maybe it really (20:41) wasn’t. We learned stuff from it. So to me, it really, uh, it made us a better company.

I never (20:46) would have guessed. I’ll probably made you a better leader on top of all about our leader. We, we, (20:50) you know, you, you’re, we still have the empathy, but you also realize you got business decisions (20:56) you have to make in order to stay in business and keep the tree, you know, branches may go, (21:01) but you’ve got to keep the base of the tree strong.

And, um, we, we, like I said, we lost (21:06) a lot of limbs during those times, but the tree was always strong and vibrant. And that was the (21:11) most important thing to all of us. And I think I went to a family discussion.

One time it was (21:16) John Ricolta, uh, was speaking and he said, you know, you have to have a major and you got to put (21:21) the good of the business ahead of yourself. Yes. I think our family has always done that.

And the (21:28) leadership has always said, this is bigger than us or that one person. And it’s about the good for (21:35) all. And, um, and we’ve been fortunate enough to do that, but I think that’s an important lesson.

(21:39) As soon as you find somebody who’s thinking it’s they’re bigger than the organization, I think (21:43) you’re running into real problems. Yeah, sure. What do you think that did? I mean, I, I can only (21:48) imagine to the positive of when, when we talked about that silver spoon piece earlier born on third (21:53) thinks he hit a triple.

I mean, everybody had to realize that, that they saw you come in, (21:59) be a crisis leader, you know, make all the, make the tough decisions and actually, um, (22:06) put the tough decisions on yourself too. I mean, you, you told me a story about, about your, (22:11) about even your own mortgage, right. During the time.

No, it was crazy. Those were crazy times. (22:16) I mean, I remember talking to my mom and dad and I have five kids.

And at the time I think they were, (22:21) I don’t know, seven down to one. Yeah. Megan was telling me, she says that time you were, (22:26) you were in the fatherhood kids and seven years.

And I remember calling my mom going, (22:32) if for some reason this really goes south, do you think Kelly and myself and the five kids (22:39) would come and stay with you and dad? And I’m like, Oh my God. Now I think my mom and my wife (22:45) would have killed each other. So we would have had one less person in the house.

Um, but it was, (22:50) it was, it was challenging times. Um, you know, a lot of good people got hurt and it was sad to (22:58) watch. It was, I mean, if you, when you step back and I knew people that lost their homes, they (23:03) moved, you know, they, more people lost their homes during that time.

They did in the great (23:07) recession. It was just a, in the great depression or the great depression. Yes.

Really? Oh yeah. (23:12) It was, did not realize that we, you know, I think we had overexposed ourselves when people (23:18) were borrowing 120% against their home. I mean, we were doing some bad, we were making bad decisions.

(23:23) I remember closing on my, my first, you know, family size home. My first little home was,(23:28) was, uh, was kind of a starter home, but my, my first family size home was during that time. (23:33) And I remember the banker calling me because the builder was in trouble.

So the banker calls me (23:38) and he says, he says, Hey, I just need you to come down here and sign for this house. And I said, (23:44) what are you talking about? Like, what, what, what kind of down payment am I bringing? He’s like, (23:48) you don’t have to bring anything. And he was going to finance me for, because the, the, (23:53) the build wasn’t, wasn’t fully complete.

He’s going to finance me for that. Plus, plus, (23:56) right. And he’s like, Oh, and you’ll probably be able to put a couple of bucks in your bank account.

(23:59) I said, I said, this sounds really nice and probably too good to be true. I said, but (24:04) I’m going to bring you a 20% down check because this is crazy. This you can’t, we can’t, this(24:10) can’t be sustainable.

And thank God I did because that home, that home tanked for a number of years (24:16) before it got back to its actual value. But you’re right. It’s kind of interesting.

I mean, (24:21) you think about the shit that occurred, our parents, they bought a house and their whole (24:25) goal was to have it paid off. Exactly. Then all of a sudden back in the early two thousands, (24:30) the late 1990s, people use their home as a checkbook and equity loan.

And all of a sudden (24:38) they ran, you know, instead of paying it down, they were adding more debt to it. And it was, (24:42) as they got older, which is the crazy thing. It was, it went exactly against what we had (24:46) always seen our parents doing, but it’s what happened.

And that’s what got us in some issues. (24:51) And, uh, you know, once again, I think as hopefully as a country, we all learned from that. (24:55) I hope so.

Yeah, me too. I’m not a hundred percent sure we did, but, uh, but right now. So during (25:01) that time though, you, you told me a story that you had, you had a jar, you had the vodka jar.

(25:08) This episode of the BLTNT podcast is sponsored by Oxium, business IT and cybersecurity designed (25:13) to outsmart chaos. Empowered by Juniper Networks, automate your network with Juniper Networks and (25:18) the Mist AI platform, the world’s first AI driven wired and wireless network. (25:22) The thing about it is we, you know, back in those days, we all paid by cash because there (25:28) weren’t credit cards, weren’t debit cards.

You know, we’d back then, I don’t even, (25:32) they were made out of computers to pay your bills online. There weren’t. So, (25:35) you know, when you’d come home from the bars or restaurants, I should say, I was never going to (25:40) bar mom and dad.

Um, and you would empty your coins into a jar and, you know, you’d fill them (25:46) up and go, ah, this will be cool. One day we’ll roll them and we’ll cash in and we’ll take a trip (25:50) or something. Right.

Well, as we’re going through this, we roll them so we could pay our next (25:55) mortgage. And we said, I remember we were sitting in our first home and we’re down by the fireplace (26:01) and we got all of them down. We threw and we’ve, we bought a, uh, a coin thing that would sort the (26:07) coin.

Yeah. And so we sorted them, we rolled them and we had like $580 of coins and we’re like,(26:14) we’re rich today. You know, it was really cool.

And, um, that helped us pay our mortgage. Wow. (26:20) And, um, yeah, it was, it was, uh, you know, and I think, so as from a personal side in my (26:27) relationship with my wife, we went through this together and we’re so much stronger and, you know, (26:32) my love for her and her advice and what we went through, I don’t think anything could pull us (26:37) apart because everything was going to, it was good.

Those were our challenges. Well, and I mean, (26:40) like, like we’re talking about any naysayers, right? Oh, well he grew up in the man’s family. (26:45) It’s like, yep.

And he sat on his knees, rolling coins in front of the fireplace. (26:50) Yeah. And you know, and the employees, we all, you know, my cousins are CFO.

She was, (26:55) she was answering phones and cashiering. I was working cow. I mean, we just went shoulder to (26:59) shoulder with our employees at which I think they love and respect that they did it.

Like if we had (27:03) to jump in a truck, we’d jump in a truck and make a delivery, whatever we had, whatever it took. (27:08) It didn’t feel unnatural to you though at all, did it? (27:12) So, you know, that’s probably a good point is we start, we start at the bottom and we start (27:18) at the bottom of totem pole. And that’s my kids, my grandfather, my dad, and it’s where we all (27:23) started.

So, you know, during, I went to the university of Michigan and during those four (27:27) years, I drove truck. I, I built loads. I worked on a high-low, swapped the warehouse.

Work in the (27:32) yard, huh? Yeah. And you know, that’s where you learn the business. I did hear one person wasn’t (27:36) allowed to work in the yard because of her motives.

Is that correct? Which one was that? (27:40) Megan with the, with going after the tan. Yeah. She wanted to just get a tan.

So we kept her inside, (27:46) but it was funny because we always had our high, our buddies from high school work in the yard. (27:52) So we, it would be fun and we would get our jobs done. And then back then you would take your (27:57) shirt off.

You’d bring suntan oil with you. And we like suntanner size in the treated aisle for (28:03) the afternoon. So those were, those were fun days, but maybe a beer after hours.

Yeah. (28:09) You know, and part of our success of, you know, people go, how do you guys stay together? (28:14) One thing is everyone gets up every day and they go to work. And I think if you don’t have family (28:20) that wants to work, we had four people pushing the wagon only in one guy riding in it or one (28:26) woman riding in it.

You finally get tired of that. So I think we all like to push the wagon. No one, (28:33) no one’s there for a free ride.

And I think that’s been, and every time, and I look at the (28:38) generations behind it and the same thing, everyone loved getting up and going to work and making it (28:42) better. Yeah. And so I don’t know if that’s our secret sauce, but it’s certainly part of it.

(28:46) Well, I mean, I think, I mean, I grew up, my dad had a boat hardware store, you know, and getting (28:52) dirty, getting sweaty, getting up early. I mean, there’s, there’s so much reward to all of that. (28:57) It feels pretty good.

Right. You know? And so, you know, as you’re talking about being out in the, (29:01) out in the yard, I’m thinking of sweeping the, sweeping the parking lot, you know, and (29:06) on a main road, you know, we wouldn’t let our kids do that nowadays, but, you know, sweeping, (29:10) sweeping the parking lot on main road, you know, where cars should probably should have hit me. (29:13) But yeah, I mean, it just, it just becomes part of your DNA, right.

As opposed to like that ego-driven (29:20) sort of, you know, you didn’t really earn it. And I, and I don’t, I, I, I hate to bash, you know, (29:26) somebody who, who does only white, does only white-collar stuff, but it’s like, I think that (29:32) that’s part of the drive of like, you know, you know, when, when Curtis introduced us, Curtis (29:36) Hayes from Kaleidoscope introduced us, he’s like, you two are going to get along just great. You (29:42) know? And it’s like, well, it’s like, I mean, but it’s like, you know, I grew up working in the (29:47) parking lot.

You grew up working in the, you know, in the yard. And there’s something to be said (29:52) about that. So, and I think it helps keep the ego in check, right? Especially if, when you get(29:58) chopped down and had to go back to a little bit of that, you know what I mean? It’s there’s, (30:03) there’s no question.

It was interesting because through that time, even some of our builders, (30:07) you know, we, it was an ego check for everyone. And I think we all came out of it a little more (30:11) compassionate and maybe, you know, a little more understanding. I think it, in some ways,(30:16) it made our industry a better industry.

You know, the other thing we talked about is, (30:20) you know, family business and how do, how do you make sure it’s fair and equal? Yeah. And, (30:27) so as we… Or merit, or meritus, right? Meritocracy. Yeah.

And so what we did is, (30:35) when we came in, we had a pay schedule and I’m not sure it was the right thing, but it was, (30:40) it was a plan. And at the end of 15 or 20 years, we were, we became partners or owners and we’d (30:47) share in the profits and whatnot. And so when that was for my brother and I, and then we had (30:52) these, my three younger partners and cousins come in and it really probably for what we were doing, (31:00) we were, the position wasn’t being compensated the way it should.

So then we hired Plant Moran (31:04) and they came in and did a study and then we created five, five different layers of, so now (31:10) if you take on a larger position, your compensation’s commiserate. And, and if you’re, (31:17) you know, at this level, that’s fine. You know, you’re still an owner, you’re still a partner, (31:21) but your pay may be a little less.

Yeah. Reflects the job that you’re doing. Reflects the job (31:26) you’re doing.

So it doesn’t just say, cause you’re a man’s that you get, you get this, (31:31) and I think that paycheck, that’s the other thing is, is yeah, you’ve got to earn that next level (31:36) position and if someone can do it better than you and it’s going to make the company better, (31:40) it’s probably a decision we’re gonna have to make and that’s okay. You’re still, you know, (31:43) you’re still an owner. So I think that and having something that’s set where you all understand it,(31:51) I think it’s very important for when you get that next generation to come in and we’re trying to do (31:56) this now for the fifth generation because we have our plan, but maybe our plan isn’t what the fifth (32:00) generation needs.

We’re giving them some guidelines and then they’re going to have to decide what’s (32:05) best for them. But I think having something in place where people understand where they can go,(32:12) what it’s going to look like, you know, we were kind of saying they’re no different than if we’re (32:15) recruiting a really good employee. What employee is going to come and go, Oh yeah, I, you know, (32:20) no, they want a career path.

They want to know where it’s going. So our family members are (32:24) no different. So I think that’s very important.

It’s helped us tremendously. Great. What about the, (32:30) the bringing in the professionals to do that? You know, so, so what do you think that, (32:34) what did plant exposed to you that, you know, maybe what you guys are smart guys, right? So (32:41) four or five of you guys sitting around a table, scratching away at it, this, what, (32:44) what did they bring different to the, to the level when you bring in that outside professional, (32:49) uh, you know, for that type of guy.

Yeah. It’s kind of interesting. You say it, (32:52) cause I always say if you’re, if you’re, you’re professionals, your CPAs, your, um, (32:58) attorneys, if they’re not challenging you and making you better, you probably should get rid (33:03) of them.

So we don’t want, yes, man. So they brought to us different ideas and concepts. (33:08) I think I always say, Hey, you know what you, we know who we are internally and what we makes (33:15) man’s ticks, but these guys can bring an outsider view.

Not only that’ll make us better. I really (33:20) think they brought some ideas and concepts that we would have never thought of. So I do think (33:25) it’s important to challenge them, but I think you have to give them the direction.

Here’s what we’re (33:30) looking for here. The things that are important. Right.

And then they’ll, them come back to you (33:35) with whatever may fit your organization. Well, cause you have to overlay your culture with that, (33:40) right on top of it. You know what I mean? I’ve seen so many people say, well, my lawyer says to (33:44) do this.

It’s like your lawyer is a guideline. You know, you still have to make the ultimate (33:49) decision. Yeah.

And that’s what I would sell people is they’ll bring you ideas, but you know, (33:54) you can feel it. Of course. You know, what’s right, what’s right for you and right for your family.

(34:02) Let’s see. When, when one thing you talked about to me the other day was it wasn’t just(34:09) the financial tightening of the belt. When, when the crisis was occurring to you, there was, (34:14) there was one other grassroots piece that you brought up, which was like, you told everybody (34:19) to call somebody.

Well, that was, we were circled the wagons and I said to everyone, (34:23) all right, you’re going to go home tonight and you’re going to call your insurance company and (34:27) tell them you had issue at your house and you ask them for three people that can do work at (34:32) your house on this issue. And I said, then you’re going to come back here and you’re going to give(34:37) us those three names because those are going to be our leads. And so we got 30 times 60, (34:43) we got about 150 names of contractors and we got on the phone and we started dialing.

(34:48) The other thing we did is we took business cards and we were at church. We looked at the people (34:53) next to us and said, if you’re doing anything in your home, make sure you work at a lumberyard. (34:57) We, we do doors and we started letting people know what we did.

I think we all tend to, (35:01) we think everyone knows what we’re doing, but realistically, the guy at church has no idea (35:06) what you do, but he likes you and he’d buy from you, but we just got to let them know. So I don’t (35:10) know. We, you know, the old timid salespeople have skinny kids.

I didn’t want to be, I didn’t want (35:16) kids to get too skinny. So we were like, we got a little aggressive on that. That was.

(35:20) So at the handshake, you had a card in your hand. (35:22) Exactly. So it was interesting.

I think the other thing it is set the tone for the driver, (35:31) the cashier, the guy in the yard that we’re all sales. We’re all selling. We’re all selling.

Like (35:36) no matter what you’re doing, smile at that customer, tell them what you do. Be proud of (35:40) man’s lumber. And if you do that, that’s how we portray ourselves.

They’re going to feel good (35:44) about coming to our location. So that was, once again, it was kind of a, you know, who would (35:50) have thought that’s where we were going. We’re going to hand out business cards.

That’s what we (35:56) did. That’s great. It was crazy.

I bumped into, um, I bumped into bill Jarvis the other day and (36:01) I hadn’t seen him for like, I don’t know, maybe 30, but it could be 20, 30 years. But, um, bill (36:06) Jarvis owned a restoration company, Jarvis, and they, they sold it a few years back or whatever. (36:12) And, um, uh, I used to hang out with another family that would go snowmobiling with them.

(36:17) And we would always, I always remember being in the car behind him and at every stoplight, (36:22) he’d jump out, flip open the back, grab a sign and put it right next to the, you know, it was like (36:27) everywhere he went, he self promoted, always selling, right. Making sure no one, you don’t (36:33) know who’s at that stoplight. That’s going to see that and know that they need, you know, (36:37) their house just flooded yesterday or something.

Zig Ziegler book. Um, and he was, you know, (36:42) to the, to the top or what I see you at the top. So he had a story in one of his books, (36:47) there was a car dealer out in Arizona and he’d go to events, baseball games, football games, (36:54) and he would just throw his cards in the air all over.

He would just throw them everywhere. (36:57) And he became the largest dealership in the whole country by doing this. (37:02) You know, I was, was that the, I think it’s the guy that was actually in Detroit.

Um, I, uh, Joe, (37:07) um, Joe Gerard, I think was his name. Yes. And, uh, yeah.

And the other thing that that guy (37:12) did too, was it was when the, uh, the Suzuki’s and the geo trackers were really a hot car. (37:18) He would, he would, at his own expense, put the fancy rims and a big stereo in it. And then he (37:24) would sell those.

He would sell those cars. So you’d package them up. Same, same concept.

So (37:29) I think we can’t be timid or letting people know what we do, you know, then, you know, (37:33) the more you can network, the better off we all are because good people want to deal with good (37:37) people. Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, I was just talking to somebody the other day that was, (37:40) that was referred to me and she was over 40.

Okay. That’s all I know. Okay.

And then I know (37:46) that I’m over 40 as well. So I, I, she said something about, I, you know, I only do business (37:52) with people that I get referred to because I I’m so, I don’t want to do business with people. (37:56) I don’t like, yeah.

And I said, same here, you know, it’s like this, this person going to, (38:01) going to be good to my employees and my employees going to be good to them. You know, um, it, it (38:07) life is too short to work with people that you dislike. I agree.

So, uh, so, um, uh, let’s see, (38:17) what else did we, did we want to chat about here? What’s, um, you know what, let’s, let’s talk about (38:23) the, where you’re kind of going from here. So right now you’re at, you’re at three stores, (38:28) 180 million. How many employees do you have? We have a little over 300 employees.

So we bought, (38:33) we have a specialty mill shop here in Rochester, legendary mill work. So we have three lumber (38:39) yards, but then we have specialty shops and we have this specialty mill shop in what a legendary, (38:46) in Rochester. And what are they, what are they making? You know what they make a special doors.

(38:52) They run their own moldings. Okay. If you can draw it, they’ll create it.

So they really, (38:56) their niche is high-end architects and designers. Okay. So, you know, when we’re selling these (39:02) custom homes in Birmingham and Northville and Rochester, everyone wants their own design.

They (39:08) want it unique, which, you know, why not? You’re building a sure home, a one-time home for yourself. (39:13) You want something that’s unique to your personality or your individuality. So we, (39:19) you draw the molding, we order the knives, we buy the raw material from Appalachian, and then we (39:26) bring it in and we run it to you, whatever your spec is.

So you can make your study look beautiful. (39:30) We really do big hand-sewn beams in your kitchen. I mean, you, anything like, you know, you go on (39:39) Pinterest and see these cool things.

Those are all the things you can make it. You know, we, (39:43) our normal stores, we sell the basic doors and the moldings. And I mean, you can do some really (39:48) cool stuff and jazz things up.

And it’s kind of interesting because that’s what Curtis and (39:53) they did a new home. And that’s what we did with that is that our trim salesperson and design guy, (40:02) he’s like, let’s do this in your home. And Stephanie’s got a great eye and that’s what (40:05) they ended up doing.

And it was just basic stuff. But by the time you got done, you’re like, wow, (40:11) this looks custom and wow. And it was simple and it wasn’t expensive.

So those are the other things (40:16) we try to do. And then we just bought a truss and a facility up in Flint, Michigan. And (40:24) so we weren’t controlling, we were relying on a two-step function with truss companies and you (40:30) bring a blueprint in and we could just, we could design out the lumber and whatnot, but (40:34) the floor truss and then the roof trusses, we were outsourcing to other people.

Well, (40:39) now we control that. So now we control our destiny and we think that’ll (40:42) well into our, you know, our success over the next 20, 30, 40, 50 years, you know, however long.(40:48) So that was a big step for us.

And we purchased that about a year ago and that has been a game (40:55) changer for us. We just landed a $10 million project in Plymouth. That without that, we (41:02) probably wouldn’t have been able to do it, that the numbers would not have worked.

But since we (41:07) bought this and now that was $10 million in the lumber and now we’re going to do cabinets and (41:12) we’re going to do the millwork and the doors and the trim. And all of a sudden it turns into a $50 (41:16) million project. If we would not have had the foresight to buy this, you know, a year ago, (41:21) we would have missed all the opportunities.

We were, you know, we’re not sitting still. (41:26) We’re going to continue to grow. We, you know, we feel that smart growth, we’re not going to grow (41:32) just to grow.

That’s not who we are, but if it’s a good acquisition, it’s a good facility, location, (41:39) you know, we want to keep growing. Yeah. Responsible growth that has to make sense in (41:43) the story and the progression of where you’re trying to go.

You got it. Yeah. That’s great.

(41:49) I had a conversation with your daughter and she, I said, what was it like to grow up with,(41:54) with Doug as a dad? And she had, she had nothing but good things to say, which is, which is good. (41:59) She was, she’s going to ask for something. She’s exceptionally proud of you.

Yeah. But (42:04) she mentioned that you, you are not one of the guys that brings home work with them. (42:09) No, generally.

So, um, no, you know, so when I was 23, I was working at the yard and I was (42:18) dispatching and things were hectic and there weren’t enough hours in the day. And we were (42:22) working 60 hours and going crazy nine o’clock at night. And I was, we, there was a truck of our, (42:29) one of our trucks was at our other location down in new Boston.

I was working in Canton. So I had (42:34) one of our flooring reps drive me down to new Boston and we stopped. And when we stopped, (42:41) there was a train and he was going left.

The train was right. Our store was right, right over (42:46) it. And he said, now you’re not dumb enough to try to jump that train.

Are you? And I said, no. So (42:52) he let me out. I stood there, stood there.

Well, I was dumb enough to try to jump it. When I jumped (42:56) it, it caught my foot and it took my toes off on my left foot. I spent six weeks at the university (43:04) of Michigan.

So here’s, once again, how do you have something bad that happens that maybe is (43:09) one of the best things that happened. And I laid in the hospital and I watched young kids with (43:15) terrible diseases. I watched the goodness of the nurses and the doctors trying to save, you know, (43:20) my leg.

And they did. And I watched people and I said, I’ll never, when I walk out of this hospital, (43:26) I’ll never have another bad day. And I’m not going to let small shit get to me.

So I know my (43:31) you’re allowed to use that here. So I, um, I, you know, I think that changed, uh, that changed who (43:37) I was before that I was, you know, I’d throw clubs in the pond. I’d throw, you know, bust my putter.

(43:43) If I may, you know, I was pretty intense, but you walk away from something like that.(43:48) And I mean, the only reason I’m alive because of the big man upstairs. Yeah.

Because without (43:54) there’s one day a week for five minutes of that week, there was a break man at that location. (43:59) He happened to be there. He called ahead, said, stop the train.

He’s not there. I don’t, I’m not (44:05) here today. Wow.

So I know. And I saw, you know, they say, you see your life flash. I did.

Yeah. (44:11) It was crazy. So, um, I’m blessed.

So when I got home at night, I said, I’m not, you know, (44:20) that stuff it’ll be there tomorrow. It’s not going anywhere. So you just kinda, I was fortunate enough (44:26) and, you know, and I had five kids who wanted my attention and it was awesome.

There was days, (44:31) you know, you’re like, I don’t have enough time for all this, but looking back, what a, what an (44:35) absolute blessing. And so, yeah, I, and we all, when we started, we didn’t have cell phones. (44:42) Yeah.

So you didn’t, it wasn’t 24, seven, you were on notice. And I think it was a simpler life (44:47) and maybe a little better life. And I think some, we all need to maybe simplify our lives a little(44:51) bit and it doesn’t have to be 24 seven.

We need to be respectful of people’s family time and what (44:56) they’re doing at home. Have you watched the show? Uh, I don’t know if you have time for watching (45:00) any shows, but the gilded age on HBO max, it’s about 1882, uh, New York city and the, the, uh, (45:09) high society there, but everything was notes, right. And writing, writing notes.

And you know, (45:16) you, you look at JP Morgan is featured in it and things like that. And this, this, uh, there’s a (45:20) guy who, uh, is representative of, of one of the, uh, railroad Barons at the time and things like (45:26) that. And, you know, you think about that of a lot of thinking is happening, but not, not so much (45:33) of that fast, fast communication.

Now at the time the wire was fast, you know, faster than the, (45:39) than the letter and everything like that, but still, I mean, the pony express, yeah, exactly. (45:43) You know, and you, you just think, wow, they accomplished so much. And then here we are (45:48) plugged in 24 seven everywhere that we are on the earth.

We, you know, we’re connected and, um, (45:54) so it’s really hard for me. So when you were telling me that I was, I was really taking it (45:58) as a, okay, maybe this is a, is there a challenge built in here or something for me to, uh, to unplug (46:04) a little differently. But, um, I haven’t, I haven’t figured that out.

You got to figure that because (46:09) yeah, I blame now I’ve got a grandkid and I like I’m was walking down the driveway to get the mail (46:15) with my one-year-old grandson. I’m like, damn, it was, it seemed like this, I was doing this with (46:20) my kids yesterday. So it’s, it all goes fast.

Yeah. So I have to figure that out. So I’m going (46:25) to take that.

I’m going to take that challenge from you. Um, the, uh, I would love to, you know, (46:33) ask you what, what, what does the 60 year old version of you, what would the 60 year old version(46:38) of you want to tell the 30 year old version of you? Uh, whether it’s, you know, business life, (46:44) technology transfer, what, what, what, what are some of the lessons you’d want to tell yourself? (46:49) I’ve been hearing a lot lately about the knock when an employee knocks on your office door and (46:53) says, got a minute. And you immediately know it’s some sort of it incident, but Oxium IT can help (46:59) whether you’re having a problem, need consulting and upgrade or a managed IT approach.

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(47:21) You know what people are like, I have a guy who said, what more do you want? And I said, (47:25) you know what? I don’t think I change anything. I I’ve been lucky. I really like, you know, (47:31) there’s not much I would change.

I think, you know, I, I lived through some, you know, (47:39) highs and lows. I don’t think I changed much of anything. You know, I think life comes at you and (47:43) you got to do it.

I think that’s our, our advantage. We’re very, we can turn on a dime as (47:49) a family. We, we, uh, you know, we make good decisions.

It’s interesting. We meet every (47:54) other week as a family and we shut the door and it’s not always pretty. We can, you know, (47:59) there’s days that we’re, you know, we’re, we, there’s, it gets heated, but at the end, (48:04) we come out of that room and we’re all on the same page and we’re all behind each other and (48:08) there’s no animosity.

And I think that’s the other important thing. We’ve in 125 years, (48:13) we’ve never had a vote. Okay.

We don’t vote on anything. We, we, we come to a conclusion. (48:17) Like if I have to call a vote, we lose.

Yeah. Cause it means we’re not on the same page. (48:22) Someone’s going to cast a no vote and they’re not with the four other yeses.

(48:25) So, you know what he realizes it’s democracy and when four people want something and it may (48:33) not be what you want, but you got to support it. That’s what we do. And so we’ve been very (48:37) fortunate that, yeah, we’ve had some Donnie Brooks.

We’ve had some, you know, some, you know, (48:44) it isn’t always perfect. You know, it’s like a marriage and 95% is great. 5% can be tough though.

(48:49) Sure. But that probably makes the 95 even sweeter. Yeah, I think so.

I think so. That’s funny you (48:53) say that about the vote. We’ve never had to have a vote here either, you know, with my, with my (48:58) partners.

So yeah, that’s I think that says something. It does. I always think about though, (49:05) the, like the, what, what made me ask that question was, was more about when you said, (49:11) you know, there was a, there was a period in time when you would throw the golf club, (49:14) you know, in the, in the water or whatever.

And you would get all, get all heated. I think about (49:18) it like this and I go, you know, the me of every, if you just look at yourself and say, okay, (49:23) I’m 48. If I, if I back up five years, five years, five years or whatever, just go, go in the fives, (49:28) you know, 45 to 40 to 35 to 30.

Some of the things that you thought were important or that (49:34) meant something, you know, whether it’s the car or the title or the, the customer that you really (49:39) want, you know, just all of these things and that you thought was important and, and you laugh at (49:44) yourself. Right. Right.

Yeah. I would agree. You know, I think that like, I probably slow it down (49:50) a little more and smell the roses a little bit more.

Just stop and appreciate life and, and, (49:54) and, you know, make it simpler. That would probably, you know, you’re right. The titles and (49:59) some of the, that’s not really what’s important.

And I think the older you get, you start reflecting (50:03) on that. I just think that there’s a, there’s a, there’s this balance of, you have to take (50:08) yourself seriously enough to realize the gravity of the position that you’re in, right? All the (50:12) families that are relying upon you, the families are relying upon me and you go, okay, I have to (50:18) take that serious, but I can’t take myself so seriously. That’s a great way of putting it.

So (50:23) I agree with that. I think that’s the, that’s the one that always kind of, kind of catches me. (50:29) What are you thinking for the next, the next 10 years? You’ve been on a, on a, well,(50:32) for this year is our 125th and we’re having, we’ve invited like 1600 people to shed three(50:41) out of the Eastern market.

Okay. And we are going to have a blowout. So we, at our store meeting (50:46) last night, I said, how many people here have ever been to 125th anniversary? No one raised (50:51) their hand.

I said, you know how many more you’ll go to same amount. So I said, this is huge. Like (50:58) it’s less than a 10th of a percent that I’ll ever get here.

So we’re so proud of that. And I’m proud (51:04) of, you know, my great grandfather for founding it and then everyone passing the torch and leaving (51:10) it better than they found it. And so, you know, and it’s cool because we’ve got vendors that are (51:15) now no longer in business, but they’re coming back.

Okay. Employees that have retired, they’re (51:20) coming back. Customers that were customers back in the seventies, they’re coming to it.

Wow. You (51:26) know, we’ve got three, four generations of podcast hosts that you just met. There you go.

You’re (51:31) invited. Shed three, September 25th. So we’re like, that is really, really cool.

You know, for us, (51:40) technology is, you know, it used to be, you just, you’d make deliveries and, but now we’re really (51:47) more of a logistics. How can we do it better? Get it from A to B better than most. So we’re (51:52) getting a race in technology.

And you know, 10 years ago, we had no one in our IT department. (51:57) We have three people. My cousin, Pete is brilliant.

He’s our CIO. You know, we didn’t, I didn’t know (52:03) what the hell a CIO was 10, 15 years ago. No one had one, but you’ve embraced it because technology (52:09) if you’re not embracing technology, you can’t stay on top.

You’ll fall behind. So we’ve really (52:15) embraced it. We’re fortunate.

My cousin, Anna, she was at Price Waterhouse. She’s a CPA. She’s (52:22) embraced the technology.

My cousin, Pete, we all have our specific, we all have roles that we’re (52:26) good at. And then we have roles that we’re not, you know, like we have things that we’re not good (52:30) at and I’m not the IT guy. I didn’t grow up, you know, we didn’t have computers when I was in high(52:35) school.

So it’s kind of been neat that we all, we all have our roles and we don’t overlap and we (52:41) don’t step on each other’s toes and it’s very respectful. And, and we all appreciate the value(52:46) we do bring our position. So I think that’s pretty special.

That’s awesome. You did just (52:52) mention a word though, here in a topic that I want to ask you about is obviously you’re embracing (53:00) some levels of technology there. And like you said, you’ve, you’ve built out an IT team now that (53:04) that’s different than what you’ve had in the past.

Anything AI in your world? You know, we are, (53:10) it’s interesting is we are, so we get blueprints. You’re going to build a home. You bring your (53:15) blueprint in.

We have a guy who sits behind there and he has a scale. He rolls it out, (53:19) how many lineal feet a wall and this and that. And it probably takes three, four hours to do (53:24) a blueprint.

Okay. Manually. Just for a general home.

For a general home, guy’s going to sit down, (53:28) bigger custom home could take a whole day. Okay. So he sits there all day and then he (53:33) has to write down everything, you know, 300 two by fours, five sheets of plywood, you know, this, (53:39) this, this.

So he’d go through that and then he’d hand that off to someone to punch in the computer(53:44) and then it’d go to pricing and then it would go to the salesman and then it would go to the (53:47) customer and it would be two weeks. So the other day we take a blueprint, we punch in what we’re (53:53) looking for. We scan it in two minutes.

We have a list of material. Wow. So instead of two weeks, (54:00) we have two minutes and it creates it in a spreadsheet that goes in our computer (54:04) and it’s priced out.

So yeah, it’s a game. Is that, is that technology kind of like the, (54:10) the, the chat GPTs and things like that, where the more you use it, it’s getting better. (54:14) That’s exactly what it was.

And so the first time would I want to use that list to build a house? (54:20) No, probably missed a few things. Maybe it was heavy on a few things, but by the 20th, 30th, (54:25) you know, it’s getting smarter every day. Wow.

And you know, so by the end of this year, (54:30) we’re going to have something that was taking us hours to now taking seconds. And that’s, (54:36) I mean, it’s mind blowing. It just, but you can, I mean, I think we’re all watching it develop in (54:43) front of us and it’s been crazy what’s going on.

Yeah. And hopefully, you know, good and bad, (54:49) you know, hopefully more, but like this stuff will make us better. It will reduce the price (54:54) of the cost of a house, which, you know, it’s too expensive.

So how can we, how can we (55:00) take costs out? This is one of them. So it’s a, it’s a great thing. (55:03) What do you from your purview of the world and of industry let’s say there’s a 18 year old kid (55:12) sitting here saying, Hey Doug, what do you think I should do with my life? You feeling like (55:17) construction is still a good, good place to go? I think if, you know, I’ve got a son who (55:22) graduated from high school and said, dad, I don’t want to go to college.

It’s not for me. (55:27) A lot of his friends, it just was not for them to go to college. And they went to trade schools (55:31) and you see the push for trades.

There’s not enough trades. And these kids are starting at (55:35) the age of 19, making seven, $80,000 a year as a trade. And they’re going to have a skillset.

(55:42) We don’t have enough labor. You’re going to need labor. Yeah.

Right. And I don’t know, (55:47) does AI take some of the jobs of the technology? Maybe, maybe not, but I know if you need a (55:53) plumber, AI is not going to plumb your house. Right.

AI is not going to, you know, change your (55:58) light bulbs or change a light fixture that’s not working. So I think, yeah, I know there’s a future (56:04) for us and, you know, for kids in our industry it it’s needed. And the other thing is it’s, (56:10) you can make a good living doing it.

It’s the, the, the barriers of entry to be a carpenter. (56:17) It’s not, you know, you don’t have to have a ton of capital. Sure.

You can, you know, you’re an (56:22) apprentice for a few years and then you can, you can be as creative as you want. I mean, it’s still (56:27) the land of opportunity. Yeah.

I think it’s such a rewarding, you know, the, the trades are rewarding (56:31) career too. You know, you get to see what you’ve, what you’ve built, you know, right there physically. (56:36) It’s, it’s so hard in the, uh, you know, in the, in the, um, uh, what a Drucker calls it, (56:42) the knowledge worker, right? You don’t always, you’re not always seeing what you’re doing, (56:46) right.

You know, coming together. That’s the, you know, people go, what’s, why do you like (56:49) what you’re doing? I’m like, every project’s different and you see something at the end. (56:53) That’s really cool.

Whether it’s a house or a kitchen or windows that get installed with cool (56:58) trim. And there’s so many things we do every day. And you’re like, every day’s different (57:01) and every day’s rewarding because we’ve helped someone like reach their dream or reach their, (57:06) their home is better because of us.

So that’s a, I mean, that’s a cool feeling. That’s great. (57:14) Um, uh, besides that message of your dad being proud, uh, down from heaven to you, what else (57:20) do you think he’s, he’s, uh, he’s probably telling me to go duck hunting and go fly fishing more.

(57:25) Okay. So for me personally, that’s going to be part of my, uh, you know, I’m ready. I’m(57:31) 60.

I’ll be 60 on, on nine 11. Okay. So that’s always a great day to reflect for me.

It’s my (57:37) birthday, but I had a gal that worked for us and she came to my office like the must’ve been 2004. (57:44) So three years after nine 11, she said, dog, I go to five people that made a difference in my life (57:50) every nine 11. So I don’t forget about it.

And I want to thank you for taking a chance on me. (57:54) So now on nine 11, I call three friends I hadn’t talked to or three people in my life. And I just (58:00) call them and say, you know what? I, uh, just so we don’t forget about this day.

Well, thank you (58:06) for being a good friend. Thanks for being a good mom. So, you know, once again, you got to be (58:11) intentional on some of those things.

You know, we can sit here and talk about it, but if we don’t do (58:14) it, right. So you gotta be intentional. So it is my birthday.

So it’s an easy, but I usually will (58:23) call some friends that I haven’t talked to and just say, thanks for being my friend. It’s meant (58:27) a lot to me. So that’s kind of, uh, I think, you know, like I said, I think the age you get, (58:32) you start reflecting a bit more and instead of this, um, dying was there.

I don’t know if you (58:38) read the book. Yeah. Yeah.

The summary I’ve read. Yeah. So you read that and it basically says, (58:44) you know, from 30 to 50, it’s about creating your wealth.

Yep. But once you get to 60, (58:50) now it’s about creating a legacy, how you want to be remembered, how are you going to write your (58:55) obituary? What’s it going to say about you? And I think it’s to me, maybe that’s, you know, maybe (59:00) it’s, you know, maybe I think too much, but I want, you know, at the end of that, I want people (59:04) to go, he was a great guy. I don’t, I don’t care about, he had a lot of money.

Right. I don’t, (59:08) that’s, I want him to go. He was a great guy.

He gave back, fun to be around, loved his family, (59:14) you know, loved to hunt and fish, loved to golf, even though he was bad. (59:20) That’s great. On the 9-11 front, I’m doing another podcast with the guys from Otis Hotel up, up (59:30) in Harbor Springs there.

And we’re bringing in Lieutenant Colonel Robert Darling, who was he was, (59:36) he ran logistics that day and was in the bunker with Chaney. So he’s, he’s coming in. Actually, (59:44) he’s going to be at our event.

We’re having an event on August 14th. Hopefully you’ll be there (59:47) for that. But then we’re heading up there to do kind of a four-way podcast with Robert Darling, (59:54) who did what he did.

Israel Hernandez, who was in the West wing the day of. Senator John DeMoose, (1:00:00) who was in the Pentagon ducking for cover. And then me, the most fortunate one, I was supposed(1:00:07) to be there for a work engagement, but was not, was, was called off a few days earlier and someone (1:00:12) else went in my stead.

So that poor guy, you know, had to deal with all of that, but we’re going to, (1:00:18) we’re going to bring that story together. And you know, this is definitely going to come up with (1:00:22) you and your birthday and the 9-11. That tragedy and what, but how it united the country.

It just (1:00:29) shows you times like that unite. They do. And so, you know, like us through our tough three years, (1:00:36) it united us more than, you know, it goes two ways and strong countries and strong organizations (1:00:41) unite.

Yeah. They come together better. So I’ll give you, you talk about Otis.

So it’s a great, (1:00:47) you know, we had, we were in Harbor Springs and we were at Birchwood and we looked out, (1:00:51) my mom and dad’s house looked out over to Lake Michigan. Okay. Otis was the hotel right in front (1:00:57) of it.

It used to be the Birchwood hotel. Birchwood hotel. So my buddies and I would take our families(1:01:03) up there for a week and we’d slow our lives down for a week and have a great time with it.

We were (1:01:07) all young kids. They had four and two and we had five. And so we’d sit in our backyard and we would (1:01:13) hit golf balls and there was a tennis court in the back of Otis and we could hit it and it would (1:01:18) bounce.

We tried to get into their pool. So make sure you tell the story that we were the guys (1:01:22) whose golf balls were in that pool at the end. So if they found golf balls, you’d like them back.

(1:01:33) Fantastic conversation. You know, rolling coins, 125 year old business, stewardship. I mean, (1:01:43) leave it better than you found it.

I mean, I think you’ve, I think you are leaving a legacy. (1:01:47) I think you’re building a legacy. I think you’re doing a great job.

And so I’m really, (1:01:50) really happy and proud that you were here with me. Yeah, this has been fun. This is nice to reflect (1:01:55) because I think most people that do well in something, we’re probably more critical of (1:02:02) ourselves and we don’t take enough time to slow down and go.

So that’s one thing we try to do is (1:02:06) at the end of the year, you list what you accomplished. Because we list, you know, (1:02:10) you get into it and like, we didn’t do this. We didn’t do this well.

You know, like you’re just (1:02:14) eating the crap out of yourselves. So I think one thing, slow down, list your accomplishments, (1:02:19) tell people, thank you for doing them. And I think we got to push, we got to be our own worst (1:02:25) critics, but you also got to stop and slow things down and go, great job.

And I think (1:02:31) that’s important too. So that’s probably the other bit of advice. I think great job, (1:02:36) great job to you.

So anybody looking for to build a house or anything else? Yeah, (1:02:42) replace your windows, your doors, your trim, your cabinets. We’re, you know, it’s, (1:02:46) we went through that man’s lumbering home and home. We got pretty much everything for your home.

(1:02:51) Fantastic. So, well, great. Thanks for being here.

And if you’ve loved this, (1:02:56) anybody watching or listening, you know, catch us on Facebook, Instagram, of course, YouTube, (1:03:02) wherever else you listen and consume podcasts and keep your eye out for the five bites newsletter. (1:03:09) That’s been the weekly newsletter going out. We’ll probably have a couple of these gems in here (1:03:13) from Doug on, on that too.

So, so thank you very much, Matt. Thank you very much.