(0:00) Welcome to the BLTNT podcast. I’m your host, Matt Loria, serving up real stories of business, (0:05) life, technology, and transformations. You’ll hear from interesting people about big changes (0:09) from career shifts to life-altering decisions, and the innovations that help make it all happen.

(0:14) It’s about sharing those light bulb moments, pivot points, challenges overcome, and the journeys (0:19) that inspire us to think differently. If you’re on the lookout for insights to propel you forward, (0:23) stories that resonate, or just a bit of inspiration on your next BLTNT move,(0:27) you’re in the right place. Let’s dig in.

(0:38) Welcome to another episode of the BLTNT podcast. I’m Matt Loria, and I’m (0:42) sitting here in Northern Michigan on our tour. As it continues, we’re in the Otis Harbor Springs (0:49) Hotel, sitting in the beautiful living room that they have here with Eric Shawn Larson.

(0:56) Eric is a Vistage chair. Many of you have heard me talk about Vistage Worldwide and Vistage (1:01) Michigan and the peer-to-peer CEO learning groups that we belong to. Eric is a Vistage (1:09) chair in the Northern Michigan area here, headquartered out of the… What is your city? (1:16) Well, it’s Horton Bay.

It’s not a city. It’s five buildings. (1:21) Near Charlevoix, Michigan, near Boyne City, near Petoskey.

(1:25) Right. (1:25) River Springs, all in this area here. So Eric’s been a good friend for quite some time, (1:32) and always an inspiration, and so I’m very proud to have you here.

(1:37) Great to be here. Lovely spot. Thank you, Matt.

(1:39) Yeah, yeah. This is the happening place in Northern Michigan, so… (1:43) It looks like it. We might get drowned out here.

(1:45) We may get drowned out. We might have to turn up the volume pretty soon, but Eric just got back (1:50) not too long ago from a talk that he did in Tokyo for a client that was a pretty cool thing (1:58) that you got to do, huh? It was wonderful. Yeah.

(2:00) Loved Tokyo, loved the people, and loved the keynote for a large conglomerate. It was trying (2:07) to help their leaders grow, so I was there talking about the leadership toolbox and how (2:12) leaders grow, especially growing emotional intelligence tools. (2:15) Okay.

Well, maybe we’ll be able to get a chance to kind of maybe breeze through some of the (2:19) elements of the talk while we’re here, and then you maybe tell me. I’ve got the talk (2:24) up here on my screen, and we’re not sharing it outside here, but if you want to reference (2:31) anything, just let me know. We can always put it up on the screen for anybody who’s watching, too.

(2:35) Wonderful. (2:36) But Eric has gone through… So we talk about business, life, technology, and transformations. (2:43) Eric has gone through plenty of transformative experiences in his life, (2:48) and his other identity is as an existential psychotherapist.

I have to have a lot of notes (2:55) with you. Yeah, good. (2:56) Use big words.

You need to push your brain. (2:57) I’m not that smart. I need your brain to expand here, Lauria.

(3:00) So explain that a little bit, and then we’ll start to build from there. (3:06) Okay. Existential psychotherapy.

That’s the word at every cocktail party. Someone says that’s what (3:11) they do for a living, so I’ll start there. Just basically, there’s different schools of psychology, (3:16) so I’m a trained psychotherapist, and this is a school that really focuses on sort of the common (3:23) truths that we all have in living a life from birth to death, like freedom, isolation versus (3:31) connectedness, productivity.

And often, we sort of run by those in life, but they’re really deep in (3:39) there, but we more often pay attention to like stress or anxiety or despair or guilt. (3:46) Sure. (3:46) But underneath them are these existential truths, so in that work, we try to help clients unleash (3:52) those to more unleash their journey.

It’s really all about how you live a more purposeful journey. (3:57) Interesting. Well, you’ve said you help leaders thrive versus survive.

(4:02) Yep. (4:02) And you help companies… (4:03) I attempt to. I sure attempt to.

(4:04) You help the companies grow through leadership growth. (4:07) 100% believe, yes. (4:09) So I believe what you’re saying there is that you help the leader grow, which then that trickles(4:13) down into the organization by dislodging these pre-existing beliefs that the leader might have (4:22) or these hang-ups that they have so that then they can then… (4:26) Yeah, I think that’s a way to encapsulate.

I mean, especially now in my work, (4:31) when I first started doing consulting, I was a therapist, I started doing coaching, (4:35) and I did some consulting, and the leaders, the leadership team would hire me to fix this team (4:40) or how do we run more effective meetings on the factory floor. (4:45) But as I’ve been doing this over 25 years now, I realized it starts at the top. (4:50) Sure.

(4:50) I can’t fix this team unless we work with the boss team first, and then what I really (4:56) explored there was it’s not… The leaders of businesses are really good at the doing, (5:02) finding the money, allocating the resources, getting some good people, compensation, sales,(5:07) whatever their specialty is. They’re not as good at realizing the importance of emotional(5:12) intelligence tools like empathy, self-regulation, self-expression, all things that (5:17) percolate in a culture of high performance, but are always mindfully attuned to it. (5:23) Yeah, right.

(5:24) So working at the top team, especially specifically on emotional intelligence tools, (5:29) has become what I think is the go-to essential work I can do from my background. (5:35) And then you integrate that into the fact that you’re a Vistage chairperson too. (5:41) So when you’re doing your one-on-one meetings with your (5:45) members, it’s not just about the nuts and bolts of the business, it’s about the whole person.

(5:49) Well, yeah, I just did two one-to-ones a day, and it was… (5:52) First, we start with, what’s the business picture? (5:56) One of the leaders just lost a key salesperson, so they’re going to have to replace them, (6:01) and then we’d explored why, and actually we talked about emotional leadership (6:06) skills of the GM that that person was working under. (6:10) They didn’t necessarily leave because of the position, they kind of left (6:14) because they couldn’t quite get along with the direct supervisor, couldn’t see eye-to-eye. (6:18) So is that just rational, or is that emotional? (6:21) Yeah, sure.

It’s emotional. (6:23) Yes, it’s emotional, but we could spend an hour talking about the rational.(6:27) Okay, let’s get on Indeed, let’s get a hire, let’s fill that position, (6:30) let’s just repeat the same cycle, or we could go a little deeper and say, (6:36) what do we know about that general manager, where can he or she grow? (6:40) Is she feeling overwhelmed? Are you feeling overwhelmed? (6:43) It’s that next level under that I think the real fruit happens in leadership.

(6:48) And you’re not the only guy talking about this. (6:52) One of your slides talks about the World Economic Forum 2023, (6:57) top eight skills of rising importance for future workers.(7:01) Can you read those? Because I think those are important.

(7:03) Yeah, creative thinking, analytical thinking, technological literacy, (7:08) curiosity and lifelong learning, resilience, flexibility and agility, (7:13) systems thinking, AI and big data, motivation and self-awareness. (7:18) And more than half of those are an emotional, I would call a being tool. (7:21) Absolutely.

(7:22) Not a doing tool. (7:22) Doing AI programming is one thing, creativity and resilience, that’s a being tool. (7:28) And we can get better at them as humans, (7:30) but we just don’t always give them the due they deserve.

(7:33) So the doing, let’s talk about the, you said thinking, doing, feeling, persuading. (7:42) Those are what I call the ego win wiring tools. (7:44) That’s how we think we’re going to win the game of life.

(7:46) Okay. (7:47) We all have all four, we’re all doers, we’re all thinkers, we’re all feelers and persuaders. (7:51) Okay.

(7:52) But we start, as we go through life, we kind of have our top two go-to ones. (7:56) Okay.(7:57) Like I work with a lot of doer persuaders, sales guys.

(8:01) Sure. (8:01) A good sales guy is a doer persuader. (8:03) Sure.

(8:03) They run their quotas, they have their set stuff and they like to get to yes. (8:07) Yep.(8:08) But what happens when the doer persuader tools aren’t working as well, (8:12) or they actually turn into manipulation and overdoing? (8:17) That’s an emotional intelligence question.

(8:19) Being a workaholic or, again, overselling, pushing others around you. (8:24) Yes, that’s an awareness of, oh my, this tool isn’t working as well. (8:29) Now I can master it, or should I add other tools? (8:32) Should I pump up my feeling and my thinking tools? (8:35) So then the feeling and thinking tools, that’s the self-control, motivation, trust, empathy? (8:40) Well, as part of that, I mean, thinking is analytical, think Einstein.

(8:45) So I was, you know, my childhood, my beautiful little chaotic childhood that (8:49) I tried to become an existential therapist to get overcome, (8:52) was as beautiful loving parents, but a little chaotic. (8:55) So I was a thinker feeler. (8:57) Yep.

(8:57) I was going to think my way to personal freedom. (9:01) And I was, I could feel feelings, but I wasn’t ever going to tell anybody (9:04) because a little hero boy doesn’t tell them if you’re sad or mad. (9:07) So I overused thinking and feeling through three college degrees (9:12) and codependent relationships in my twenties, thirties, because I couldn’t be authentic.

(9:17) Okay. (9:18) As I healed those, as I set my personal freedom free, give myself permission,(9:26) persuader, doer came in more. (9:29) I did, I have a little lavender farm.

(9:30) That’s a lot of doing, going on that stage in Tokyo, (9:34) giving that keynote for 60 minutes was a lot of persuading. (9:37) Sure. (9:37) After about a hundred hours of doing.

(9:39) So I view it as a wheel. (9:42) Do you spin the wheel or you’re relying on one or two tools?(9:46) And where’s your strength becoming a weakness? (9:47) That’s a key emotional intelligence question. (9:50) Now, are these emotional intelligence items? (9:52) Is this the self-control, the motivation, the trust and empathy? (9:55) Yes.

(9:55) Those are EIQ cornerstones. (9:58) Yeah. (9:58) Okay.

(9:59) Okay. (10:00) And do you see, do you see the general population of the leadership? (10:06) You know, the, the folks that you encounter, (10:09) is there any one of those that is the primary deficiency? (10:14) Ram again. (10:15) Self-control, motivation, trust, and empathy.

(10:17) Definitely not motivation. (10:19) Okay. (10:21) Yes.

(10:21) Trust, which is why leaders don’t delegate often enough, (10:25) especially if they’re moving from the expert phase into a manager leadership role (10:29) where they think they’re the best doer of this specific skill, (10:32) accounting or sales or marketing vulnerability. (10:35) No, because we’re going to win and the vulnerable don’t win (10:40) is how we’re programmed in our culture. (10:42) And I’m assuming the vulnerability piece falls under the empathy as part of that.

(10:46) Yeah. (10:46) You can’t be empathetic for somebody else until you’ve been vulnerable with yourself. (10:50) You can fake it, but it ain’t real.

(10:53) You want to talk about your own kind of journey of, of where, (10:56) I mean, you, you say this started for you as a kid. (10:59) You were recognizing these. (11:01) Oh yeah.

(11:02) Yeah. (11:03) Probably early, early, ultimately had to get over. (11:06) Well, you don’t get over, you go through.

(11:07) Okay. (11:08) Okay. (11:09) Um, yeah, three years old.

(11:12) My folks were already divorced, um, some addiction, some anxiety, some anger issues.(11:18) So that’s where I said that little boy realized, okay, (11:20) I’m just going to really be a good thinker and bury my feelings. (11:24) Cause the big people don’t have their act together quite well enough.

(11:26) So it’s all going to be up to me. (11:29) That is not good definition of vulnerability and for sure, (11:32) not a good definition of trust, right? (11:33) So then you move through life and move through high school and would love to have had a (11:38) girlfriend, but I asked one girl out and she said yes. (11:41) And I was too shy to ever talk to her again.

(11:45) So that wasn’t going to work either. (11:46) So yeah, we, I had a lot of these strengths.(11:48) I really was good at school.

(11:50) I really did. (11:50) You know, the three college degrees were easy. (11:54) Um, but to be more well-rounded human, to grow my path, (11:58) I had to learn that what got me to a certain stage in life.

(12:02) Wasn’t going to fulfill me later on. (12:04) It really was owning the fear. (12:06) If you really want to bottom line emotional intelligence, (12:08) are you able to own your deeper inner fear that makes you want to win and motivate you to win? (12:16) Because you do that.

(12:18) Then you’re less pissed off when the team comes back with a bad report. (12:22) Sure.(12:22) Or you lose a good customer and then you can creatively problem solve it.

(12:27) And you don’t lose your best people, (12:28) maybe because you blasted them out of the room on a bad day. (12:32) But yeah, it starts here. (12:34) Yeah.

Well, you had asked me, you know, what, what’s one of these areas that, uh, (12:38) that I feel like I’ve made some progress through. (12:41) Yeah. Yeah.

(12:41) Would you add a new tool or got better at it? (12:44) Emotional intelligence tool in your life, in your leadership journey. (12:47) For me, it’s definitely been on the, um, and I don’t know,(12:51) you might be able to put a title to this is the reaction, right? (12:55) The, the explosiveness to a, of a reaction. (12:58) So yeah, self-control, self-control, self-regulating.

(13:04) And, um, yeah, so I think I’ve done a lot of work, a lot of work there. (13:08) My, my last year, my, my major focus has been to, uh, get rid of cynicism (13:15) so that I’m not, I’m not a cynical thinker. (13:19) That’s a good one.

Define cynicism. (13:22) Uh, cause that’s a term people might have a different definition. (13:25) I think for me, it’s a, um, a natural bent to, to think about something negatively.

(13:32) So I’m like a circumstance or I’m oddly, I’m oddly, um, you know, um, um, optimistic,(13:41) but I do think things through and I’ll kind of run them the gambit. (13:46) And as I’m running through the, the, um, the, the good, the bad, (13:52) they can, they can have some real negative messages in there. (13:54) And so I look at it as on a continuum.

(13:57) Anytime someone brings me an opportunity or a problem or whatever, (14:00) I kind of go best case, worst case and, and, and run it. (14:04) I think the thing that I’m trying to do is stay away from the adding cynicism, (14:10) which is just negative tones, negative thoughts on top of what already could be bad. (14:15) Um, that might be… (14:17) Give me a phrase, a cynical phrase versus just the objective analytical… (14:21) Maybe thinking that the, the, the, the person is bad when they’re making that as, as they’re, (14:27) as they’re, um, uh… (14:30) They make a mistake or… (14:31) No, no, no.

(14:32) More like, um, let’s say like I’m feeling manipulated on something. (14:35) Do I go to the cynical side that says I’m being manipulated or do I look at it and say, (14:41) okay, this person’s trying to get what they, do I stop it? (14:44) They’re just trying to get what they want. (14:45) Right.

(14:46) And, and not, not judging. (14:48) So going back to that whole thing of, um, uh, what is it? (14:52) Judge the, judge the action, not the person. (14:55) Right.

(14:56) So stop, stop… (14:57) What versus the who? (14:58) Stopping. (14:59) Yes. (14:59) Yes.

(15:00) So not, not, not saying, oh, they’re just an evil person. (15:04) Right. (15:04) You know, uh, and I’m being very dramatic, obviously.

(15:06) No, no, but that’s, that is us back in this work and why leaders may be shy from it, (15:11) even though I think, I know it’s essential for growth of your personal life and your company.(15:15) It gets very subtle. (15:17) I mean, our ancestors had these things for 10,000 years and we still don’t know a squat about them.

(15:23) Well, and, and, you know, the brain, you know, if we back up a couple hundred years back, (15:28) right, we were just farming and hunting, right? (15:31) We weren’t, we weren’t doing all of these (15:34) constant computations and screens. (15:37) That technology can outgrow sometimes the emotional capacity. (15:44) Which is what, and Togi was in the keynote, emotional, AI is big, right? (15:49) Of course.

(15:49) Is that emotional intelligence. (15:51) AI is even bigger. (15:53) We’ll all get all in on AI, even though these things really are going to make AI either (16:00) help us, doom us or be neutral.

(16:04) Why? (16:05) Because they’re sort of built, we’re almost built like in the matrix. (16:09) We’re built to be a little bit of a sleep for our own consciousness. (16:12) It takes true effort to wake up.

(16:14) Yeah. Right. (16:15) Right.

Well, I mean, if he wakes up, we’ll use AI better as his humanity. (16:19) Right. (16:19) The brain’s constantly looking for shortcuts.

(16:21) That’s, it’s designed to do that. (16:23) Right. (16:23) I mean, when we drive home and don’t remember, you know, was there, was there a red light there? (16:29) Was there not? (16:29) You know, our brain is, it’s going on autopilot wherever it can and trying to preserve.

(16:33) So even though we all say we want to be more present and have more content, (16:38) You bet. (16:40) So it’s a little paradox. (16:42) So you talk about the ape versus the man in your talk.

(16:51) Then, so there’s a slide in the, in the, in my keynote where there’s an angry (16:58) silverback gorilla and an angry human man facing off against each other. (17:03) And the name of that slide in my head, it’s called grace. (17:07) Because we, to really grow, you said you overcame some soft reactivity.

(17:13) 20 years ago, what would have been, well, if I saw you in reactive, what would I have seen? (17:19) If we were shooting video, it’d be 20 years ago. (17:21) There might’ve been some yelling involved. (17:23) There might’ve been some yelling.

(17:26) Now, what would I see? (17:28) You’re still going to have emotion. (17:29) You’re still going to have adrenaline. (17:30) You would see a pause.

(17:31) Pause. (17:32) You would see a pause. (17:32) So both the silverback and the human were built to be angry.

(17:37) And actually it’s a survival mechanism, right? (17:39) We’re both built with fight, flight, freeze parts of our brain to protect the body. (17:44) The reason I call it grace is because we have need to own that. (17:47) That’s just the way our brains were built and our animal cousins.

(17:52) The grace is that might be my first reaction, but that’s my most primitive part of my brain. (17:59) The frontal lobe is where we learn to create pause. (18:02) The trick is the frontal lobe has much fewer connections to the midbrain, (18:07) which is where we store the fight, flight, or freeze reaction than it has out.

(18:12) So it’s easier to go into fight mode than to learn to pause mode, but it’s essential. (18:20) Well, for contentment, for sure. (18:22) It’s essential to really lead in a dynamic, changing company where it’s unpredictable (18:27) and you need people smarter than you in a lot of areas(18:31) and you need to share the power and delegate.

(18:34) It’s essential to learn that. (18:35) Well, we’ve seen Bill Crawford and his book. (18:38) Yes.

(18:38) And his presentation. (18:39) My work is very similar. (18:40) And then a previous guest that we just had recently here, Rob Dubay.

(18:47) He has the Shed to Shine podcast that he hosts. (18:56) And then he and Gina Wickman wrote the book Shine. (18:58) Okay.

(18:59) And I’m not familiar with that, but that sounds really neat. (19:01) Based around that, too.(19:03) So I’d encourage you to look that up.

(19:05) Very similar thoughts. (19:08) I’ve had it told to me through Bob Holland uses the statement of if I have my core values, (19:16) or if I’m a faithful person and I have the Jesus filter or a core value filter, (19:23) where that instant reaction has to go through a filter before it comes out of your mouth. (19:28) If you train that part of your brain.

(19:30) You bet. (19:30) Yeah. (19:31) So it takes a lot of work, and then you’re getting into the higher processing.

(19:35) Right. (19:36) So I’ll give you another piece back to your cynicism thing. (19:38) So back to this slide of the silverback and the human, both angry, (19:42) both trying to protect their body.

(19:44) But really, if it’s not really a body danger, like cynicism isn’t a danger to your biology.(19:50) No, it’s pretty much an ego attack. (19:51) Yeah.

(19:52) It’s the danger to an internal concept of ourself. (19:55) That’s why I call it grace. (19:56) We need to realize both.

(19:58) We have that reaction, overreaction to potential ego identity threat. (20:02) And the person who is maybe being cynical or has the same. (20:07) The more we can give grace to me, the more I can give grace to you.

(20:11) I still, I’m not taking the deal, but I don’t have to label who you are as evil or bad. (20:17) But that’s very subtle. (20:18) You and I can agree on it, but it’s in the moment.

(20:21) A lot of us screw that. (20:23) Yeah. (20:23) Screw that up.

(20:24) Holding on to it too, afterwards, I think is another piece. (20:28) Yeah. (20:29) To what end? (20:29) It’s always tough.

(20:30) How long do you want to hold on and think that person is the a-hole, right? (20:33) Yeah, or our past, or our own mistakes. (20:36) Or our own regrets. (20:37) And beat ourselves up.

(20:38) That’s why forgiveness is beautiful, but hard to do. (20:41) Is there a circumstance or maybe, don’t name the person, but somebody that you work with (20:49) where you go, man, that was a success story working with John Doe. (20:56) Many of them.

(20:57) Pick one of the characters. (20:58) I’ll say one of a success story in terms of succession.(21:03) I don’t know if I can say that.

(21:04) Success and succession. (21:05) Success and succession. (21:06) Where the founder wanted to hand the business over to their kid.

(21:13) But didn’t think that their kid was ready, even though they had been working in the business (21:19) since they were four, pushing brooms. (21:23) It wasn’t a rational doing reason they weren’t ready. (21:28) And the founder said, my kid’s going to have to take it from me, basically.

(21:32) I’m not handing anything. (21:33) Nothing’s free here. (21:36) Made it almost like a civil war type of thing? (21:39) Well, no.

(21:40) But not overtly, but inwardly. (21:43) Okay. (21:44) You know, I’m stubbornly going to hold onto this until— (21:46) Until he proves it completely.

(21:48) Yeah. (21:48) Okay. (21:50) Then there was an emotional intelligence shift.

(21:52) A new tool was added to the toolbox. (21:55) A new insight tool. (21:57) And the insight tool was, I’ve been holding on so hard to this business because I made it my identity.

(22:05) And I made it my identity to prove my mom wrong. (22:09) That I was a better person than I thought she thought I was. (22:13) And I didn’t plan it like this, but is this the quote that says, (22:16) one day I realized what drove me to build this company was the effort to prove I was good enough? (22:22) Is this the same— (22:23) That’s a paraphrase of the quote, yeah.

(22:24) Okay. (22:25) To me, that is really what we’re trying to get to. (22:29) Do all sessions with leaders go that deep? (22:32) What happened when he got there? (22:33) This best succession I ever saw.

(22:36) Well, okay, I’m sorry. (22:37) Let me back up and put it into some more bite-sized chunks. (22:40) The day that you had that conversation and he said that to you.

(22:44) Yes. (22:44) That was the starting point, I would imagine. (22:46) That was like the epiphany.

(22:48) Okay. (22:49) The path to that was exploring, you know, stresses and what, you know, pros and cons. (22:54) Matrixes.

(22:55) I said that the wrong way. (22:56) That was the epiphany day. (22:57) But after the epiphany day, that’s when the real work would have then got started with the transition.

(23:02) Yeah, the real work without the tension of having to take it versus let’s make this win-win. (23:08) Okay. (23:08) I don’t need to prove I’m good enough anymore.

(23:10) That changes everything. (23:11) Got it. (23:12) That phrase.

(23:13) If all of our leaders could do their work on I don’t need to prove I’m good enough anymore. (23:17) Yeah. (23:17) We would change the world.

(23:27) This episode of the BLTNT podcast is sponsored by Oxium, (23:30) business IT and cybersecurity designed to outsmart chaos. (23:33) Empowered by Juniper Networks. (23:35) Automate your network with Juniper Networks and the Mist AI platform.

(23:38) The world’s first AI-driven wired and wireless network. (23:52) Powerful stuff. (23:54) And frustrating.

(23:56) It’s joyful, frustrating work. (23:57) You have another example besides that person?(24:01) Let me see. (24:04) Because I think what I want to do is I want to make sure that whoever’s watching, listening to this, (24:10) you know, can say, okay, I could see where that would be freeing, (24:14) or I could see where that would be helpful.

(24:16) Nice, that’s good. (24:16) Or I can put myself in the same position. (24:18) I can, there’s a doer executive I’ve worked with comes to mind.

(24:23) We worked our way up through, you know, (24:26) the floor work, the supervisor, the founder, you know, not the founder, (24:31) to director, to COO, but she’s an awesome doer.(24:35) She’s the best. (24:36) She’s what I would call an uber-doer.

(24:37) She’s the best doer in the place. (24:41) Her challenge and struggle is learning that her expertise (24:45) that got her to rise up to management and leadership (24:49) is not the same toolbox to learn how to help others to be better doers. (24:54) Very common, and I’m sure you’ve seen this in business groups, (24:57) or maybe you do this yourself or your company.

(24:59) It’s a high stress time. (25:01) Someone’s got to get done. (25:01) We got to push it out fast.

(25:03) Do we train people how to push things out fast? (25:05) Or we just step in and say,(25:06) I know how to do this. (25:07) I’m going to get it done. (25:08) That’s faster.

(25:08) If we don’t have, we don’t have time to train you. (25:10) Right. (25:10) So she’s, and she’s right in there right now, (25:13) which is back to the trust as an EIQ skill.

(25:18) Trusting, delegating, and Tom Nelson, (25:24) who’s a vision speaker who talks about time span. (25:27) Tom Foster. (25:27) Tom Foster.

(25:28) Tom Foster, time span leadership, (25:32) where you want people to be able to solve problems (25:35) in greater duration of time, (25:37) but the leaders usually only gives them fake authority to do it (25:42) versus true problem-solving authority. (25:44) This is your project, make it happen. (25:47) So I’ll ask you a question, Mr. Bossman.

(25:50) Why do we sometimes give fake authority (25:52) versus true authority to our workers to solve problems? (25:56) We don’t really want to do. (25:58) Why do we kind of hedge it in smaller companies, (26:01) especially small to mid-sized companies? (26:04) Well, I mean, I think that it’s probably because you’re, (26:07) again, you use the word hedge. (26:09) I would say, you know, it’s an insurance policy, right? (26:13) Because you don’t really trust them, I think is the issue.

(26:16) Then we talked about that 20 minutes ago. (26:17) You sure did. (26:18) As an EIQ skill, yeah.

(26:19) Yeah, yeah. (26:20) Don’t trust them to do it as good as us (26:24) or don’t trust them that they’re not going to screw it up (26:27) or we’re going to lose their company. (26:29) I think for me, I never worry about that the person isn’t, (26:34) and I’ve worked past a lot of this,(26:36) so this is not present day, (26:37) but I don’t think I ever worried (26:41) that the person couldn’t do the task.

(26:43) I think I was so worried, (26:45) especially in those formative days of the organization,(26:48) of I’m going to lose my company. (26:50) Right, right. (26:50) And so I was going, my one friend is a psychotherapist also, (26:54) and she says, you go straight to dead, right? (26:58) There’s, you don’t go to like, you know, (27:00) there’s just, you’re going to fall down.

(27:02) It’s like, you’re right to dead. (27:03) I love that. (27:03) Immediately to dead.

(27:04) That’s excellent. (27:05) And so I think that that’s the, you know, (27:07) I think that’s, again, some more of the work that I’ve done, (27:09) on myself, but what I don’t find myself great (27:15) is how do I inspire that to somebody else (27:17) to have that same thinking, right?(27:20) So, I mean, I think- (27:20) Like leaders beneath you? (27:21) Yeah, I think- (27:22) To help empower the upcoming leaders? (27:24) I think that would be something that I need to- (27:25) And I think all leaders in small, medium, (27:28) that should be one of their, you know, annual rocks, (27:31) is how do I empower my leaders to train the new leaders? (27:35) Yeah. (27:36) Back to my example that where my leadership friend, (27:40) she’s learning that trust delegation.

(27:42) How do you teach it? (27:43) How do you- (27:44) Sure. (27:44) Set it up in a small enough- (27:46) Well, you know- (27:46) Bites to get better at it. (27:47) Fortunately for us, you know, I mean, (27:49) we’re past a couple of the humps (27:51) in terms of sizes of the organization (27:54) where we’ve had to get through those.

(27:57) So it’s, I don’t want to say it’s getting easier, (28:00) but we’ve had a couple of those.(28:03) We wouldn’t have made it to where we are (28:05) without giving the trust, (28:06) without empowering the other people. (28:09) But, you know, but there’s still a big mountain to climb.

(28:11) But that’s part of growth, right? (28:13) It’s used to scale growth. (28:16) The top two or three brains had to go add some tools (28:18) to the toolbox, would be my hypothesis. (28:20) Sure.

(28:20) So now we’re adding more leadership staff. (28:23) That’s great. (28:24) And we have to make sure that that staff (28:26) is empowered the same way (28:28) and has the same type of, you know, frontal lobe thinking.

(28:32) Yeah, training and opportunity and coaching and mentoring. (28:34) Yeah, I think that’s awesome. (28:36) We’re following the teachings of James Fisher (28:41) talks about the seven stages of growth.

(28:43) I don’t know if you’ve seen that. (28:45) And there’s some Vistage speakers (28:46) that actually specialize in his programs. (28:50) At the different stages that an organization is, (28:53) and I know you talk about stages of organization.

(28:55) Yeah, the grinder paradigm, which is similar. (28:57) Is that there’s different leadership skills (29:00) need to show up at different times (29:02) and a different leader has to be there.(29:04) So we have to be those lifelong learners.

(29:07) We have to be those flexible people. (29:10) We can’t be fixed minded, right? (29:12) And so that’s where you take this doing mentality, (29:15) expertise mentality. (29:16) And all of a sudden it’s like, (29:18) no, I gotta be an EQ guy.

(29:22) Well, hallelujah for drinking the Kool-Aid. (29:24) Thank you. (29:24) That’s part of my career.

(29:26) I’m already bought in. (29:28) Can I talk about Vistage a little bit? (29:29) Cause you’re triggered to Vistage. (29:30) Yeah, you absolutely can.

(29:32) Been a Vistage share for 13 years (29:33) and the number one quality of a Vistage member (29:36) who gets full ROI, return on investment, (29:39) is that they’re a lifelong learner.(29:41) Yeah. (29:42) I don’t care if it’s a 2 million (29:43) or a $1 billion size company.

(29:46) The lifelong learners get the most out of it (29:49) and give the most back to their peers.(29:51) We just had another guest who is actually (29:54) one of the owners of this hotel that we’re sitting in. (29:56) And he works in the finance world (29:59) and venture capital world and that.

(30:02) And has worked for President Bush, (30:05) has worked for President Trump, (30:06) has done a lot of amazing things in his career. (30:09) And he told me that he’s learning (30:12) Python programming right now. (30:13) Wow.

(30:14) Because in the world of AI, (30:16) he wants to know how to be able to call bullshit.(30:18) And so I said, now that’s a lifelong learner. (30:21) I mean, that’s a lifelong learner.

(30:23) The rest of us are reading business books. (30:25) And he’s actually two hours every night (30:29) coding in Python and he’s in his 50s. (30:32) It’s cool.

(30:33) He’s not, this isn’t a 20 year old person (30:35) learning this stuff. (30:35) Right. (30:36) It’s, so it’s pretty amazing.

(30:38) But again, he checks the box, right, of that. (30:42) Okay, why is this guy credible?(30:43) Why is he a leader? (30:44) Because he’s investing in himself. (30:46) He’s investing in learning.

(30:47) He’s not just taking surface answers and saying, (30:50) hey, this is, it must be so.(30:52) Right. (30:53) Because it says it on the news or it says it here.

(30:55) He’s actually doing the digging, (30:57) doing the work and learning a new skill. (31:00) And when we feed ourselves that way, (31:02) we, people perceive us, you know, (31:05) we come in with more energy the next day at the job. (31:08) Sure.

(31:08) We just vibrate differently. (31:10) Sure. (31:10) Which is a really fuzzy word.

(31:12) But you know what I meant when I said it. (31:14) I do. (31:14) Yeah, a hundred percent.

(31:16) What else is important to you to share with folks? (31:22) Well, I also have the frustration and joy. (31:24) I’ll back up that frustration and joy comment. (31:26) Um, if you think of the mind as the primary toolbox, (31:31) we get to live and lead and love and survive on this planet.

(31:36) It’s both a beautiful and kind of an ugly machine. (31:40) We can hug and invent and paint the Sistine Chapel (31:43) and we can create weapons and kill each other. (31:47) So the frustration is that our ancient ancestors (31:49) 10,000 years ago, (31:51) we’re working with the same biological computer.

(31:54) And they did pass some wisdom to us. (31:57) I mean, we have Plato. (31:58) We have the philosophers.

(31:59) We have the first HeroQuest story, (32:01) Epic of Gilgamesh, (32:02) talking about how the leader needs to confront their shadow (32:06) to become he who sees the deep, (32:08) who becomes a better, more deeply productive, (32:10) compassionate leader. (32:11) We know all this and then we forget. (32:14) We know all this and then we forget.

(32:16) So the frustration and joy is the, (32:18) and it’s why I love Vistage. (32:19) I think Vistage is a peer-to-peer model. (32:22) One of the most efficient EIQ tool, (32:28) creating mastering models there are for leaders.

(32:31) Well, it’s interesting. (32:33) And this is just kind of coming up for me right now (32:35) is that Rob Dubay, who we had on just recently, (32:41) you know, talks about thinking in 10-year time span. (32:44) His previous podcast that he had before (32:47) the Shed to Shine podcast,(32:51) was called Do Nothing.

(32:53) And he was a big, big proponent of meditation. (32:56) And, you know, meditation or prayer, (32:58) whatever, you know, essentially, (32:59) whatever works for you type of thing is his stance. (33:03) And, but it’s all about setting time aside.

(33:06) And I never really thought about Vistage (33:09) or peer group type of stuff as almost a meditation (33:12) when you think about it, (33:13) because you are setting aside time. (33:15) Right. (33:16) You know, in a different realm, right? (33:18) You’re getting out of the day-to-day work (33:19) and you’re going into something for an entire day, (33:23) devoting yourself to learning and share and whatnot.

(33:27) And so when you say that it’s effective, (33:29) well, one of the reasons that it’s effective(33:30) is because you’re taking yourself out of the (33:33) working environment for that day session. (33:38) And that’s the time to sharpen. (33:40) I agree.

(33:40) And I think a layer deeper is then you also have peers (33:43) and there’s always one or two in the group (33:44) who lead the way on owning their weaknesses. (33:47) Sure. (33:48) Which is how we owning fear and weakness, (33:50) how you grow emotional intelligence.

(33:52) Well, and we learn it through other people too, right? (33:54) So when you see the other guy in the room- (33:55) Yeah, these are who watch me. (33:56) If you have a meltdown, then do it myself. (33:58) So yeah.

(33:58) Well, but it’s also easier to watch and you go, (34:01) okay, hey, that guy’s, (34:02) let’s say you’ve got the $10 million company (34:04) and the guy in the group has the $50 or $100 million company. (34:07) And he’s mastered some of those things (34:09) and you watch his behavior in that room and you go, (34:12) I want a teaspoon of that. (34:13) Right.

(34:14) I want to behave that way. (34:15) Right. (34:16) You know, what’s that guy drinking?(34:17) You know, I think it’s the one- (34:19) Is it lavender honey that he’s drinking? (34:20) If they’re smart.

(34:21) That’ll call me- (34:22) Best lavender honey. (34:23) So the last little thing to put a bow on that too would be, (34:27) I think all small, medium-sized companies (34:30) should have some model or approach (34:32) to growing emotional intelligence. (34:33) Like you said, you’re scaled at Oxium (34:35) and to scale more, (34:37) we got to keep the EQ flowing with doing, right?(34:41) Expertise with the EQ.

(34:44) To do that, they should do it, (34:45) but they should keep it really simple. (34:47) They should start with a leadership team. (34:49) They should do their work first.

(34:51) Don’t hire me like when I was young (34:53) and come fix this team (34:54) and then they all get more assertive and powerful (34:56) and you fire them all because they challenge their ego. (35:00) Start small, create a common language around it (35:02) because for some reason the language and the stuff, (35:04) even empathy is, we feel it’s loosey-goosey. (35:08) And then reward those who are growing (35:12) with more time span, more responsibility.

(35:15) And the final thing is the peer-to-peer support. (35:17) If the peers believe in it, we will.(35:19) There’s some research actually on empathy.

(35:22) The brain is not wired to be empathetic. (35:25) Oh, really? (35:25) They show two pictures, (35:26) one picture of a woman crying, (35:30) they ask two questions. (35:31) You can either describe what you see (35:33) in this picture of the woman crying (35:35) or describe how you think she feels.

(35:38) And by far like 65, 70% of people (35:41) took the easy way out. (35:43) Here’s on her face, she’s wearing a sweater (35:45) versus, oh, she’s hurt. (35:48) She might’ve lost somebody.

(35:50) She feels lost. (35:52) Just pure wiring. (35:54) Okay.

(35:55) So if the peers are gonna do EQ, we will. (35:58) If the peers just wanna keep it superficial (35:59) and we just kind of talk about the do-to-do-to-do, (36:03) that works too, until it doesn’t. (36:06) Interesting.

(36:07) And I mean, one of the stats that you talk about (36:10) in your talk is the growth in EQ training, (36:15) the investment growth, (36:17) $27 billion of growth in four years. (36:20) Yeah.(36:20) I’m really interested in that one (36:22) to overlay that to the whole, to the AI.

(36:26) Yeah, there’s gonna be AI, (36:28) we’re gonna spend money easier on that, for sure.(36:30) AI is taking so much of the quick thinking (36:34) or even the research type of thinking out of, (36:39) I mean, I can tell you it’s taking it out of my day. (36:41) I mean, I’m doing so much work in AI tools (36:45) on a daily basis that it’s spitting out summarizations.

(36:51) I mean, you saw what I did when we first sat down. (36:54) I said, let me push the co-pilot button here. (36:56) It summarized your entire- (36:57) Yeah, my keynote.

(36:58) You know, your 20 slide keynote. (37:01) And it was- (37:02) It’s pretty good. (37:03) With about 85, 90% accuracy.

(37:06) You know, so it would make sense that if, (37:09) we won’t be able as humans to keep pace (37:12) with the pace that the AI is learning, (37:16) but the empathy piece and the warmth piece (37:18) is a piece that I think we’re gonna have to continue to learn. (37:22) No, yeah, I’ll agree with you. (37:23) I mean, they can train it somewhat into these models, (37:27) but nowhere near what it can’t feel.

(37:30) I’ve been hearing a lot lately about the knock. (37:32) When an employee knocks on your office door (37:34) and says, got a minute? (37:35) And you immediately know it’s some sort of IT incident. (37:38) But Oxium IT can help.

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(38:01) Right, so you just triggered two thoughts. (38:04) Let’s hear them. (38:05) Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein, and back to Gilgamesh, (38:10) which is the hero who saw the deep, right? (38:14) Frankenstein wasn’t built by Dr. Frankenstein, (38:17) but it’s a technology, (38:19) and they lost control of the technology.

(38:20) Humans have a history of losing control of our technologies. (38:24) When we move from carriages to automobiles, (38:27) some people thought it’s the world’s ending. (38:28) No, this is awesome.

(38:32) Always though, the constant is we’ve had this brain built (38:35) to protect the body and the ego. (38:39) In an ideal world, if I could weigh the magic wand, (38:42) we would invest equally in EIQ (38:46) as we do automotive or model machine or AQI AI. (38:53) What do they call it? (38:53) What’s, give me AI, what’s the- (38:55) Automation.

(38:57) Well, artificial intelligence. (38:58) So yeah, we invest equally with emotional intelligence(39:01) as artificial intelligence. (39:02) Okay.

(39:03) Because then we would know how to symbiotically use both better. (39:06) I’ll bet you any money that that won’t happen. (39:08) It will not happen.

(39:09) That’s why I said I’m frustrated. (39:10) My ancestors screwed us up. (39:15) Do you have a template or a thought pattern (39:19) that you walk through when it’s just you, (39:22) one-on-one with a leader, (39:24) and maybe you don’t have a total agenda pre-planned? (39:28) Are there four or five questions (39:30) that you know that you have in mind every time (39:32) that you’re gonna ask? (39:33) That’s a great question.

(39:34) I love that question. (39:35) Well, I kind of hinted at it before, (39:37) you know, I was kind of talking about the coaching I had today, (39:40) which is giving the big picture, (39:42) you know, where’s capital at? (39:43) Where do you keep people at? (39:44) Where’s sales at?(39:45) What’s, you know, what’s the pressures? (39:47) What’s the fears? (39:47) What’s the pinch points? (39:49) So to get the, give me the, (39:50) let’s get the data established first(39:52) and risk or reward for the data. (39:55) But then it’s always gonna go to the individual leader.

(39:58) All right. (39:58) How are you processing this analytically? (40:02) And then how are you processing it emotionally? (40:06) And if the emotions are flowing, (40:08) if you’re, if you’re flowing, (40:11) you’re not the coach on it. (40:12) I really only coach on places where we’re stuck.

(40:14) And then I will dig down (40:16) and one of my questions will be, (40:17) okay, how’s that working for you? (40:20) You know, you reacted, (40:21) you blew up in the team meeting again.(40:23) How’s that working for you and the team? (40:25) Or what are you really afraid of?(40:28) I think the, what are you really afraid of (40:30) is the one that probably every time(40:32) punches you between the eyes. (40:33) It’s not that hard a question.

(40:35) No, but it really requires you to go deep though (40:37) to answer that one. (40:39) Right.(40:41) And then the final one, (40:42) you know, what do you want to celebrate? (40:44) Because like for sure, we got to celebrate this stuff.

(40:46) Would you say that there’s a, (40:48) you say you get focused, (40:50) you really dig on the pieces that the person’s stuck on. (40:54) If you just had to guess, (40:55) and I know you don’t have, (40:56) you know, your laptop in front of you or anything. (40:58) I’ll make up a stat.

(40:59) Make up a stat on the napkin here. (41:03) What is the number one struggle (41:07) that you’d say you’ve seen over the last 24 months (41:10) from leaders? (41:14) Interpersonally or physically? (41:15) I don’t care how you answer it. (41:21) A lot of succession stories.

(41:26) Well, struggles, I’m saying struggles. (41:28) These are stories about succession (41:30) that have a lot of struggles. (41:32) The struggle, how to navigate it.

(41:35) So that you set that company up to thrive after you’re gone, (41:40) whether you’re a founder or executive. (41:42) But then the struggle of who am I (41:44) if I’m not a leader of this company? (41:49) So that’s a big one. (41:52) Just for the fact that not everybody is at that stage.

(41:55) So then the other one would be growth. (41:57) Okay. (41:58) It’s kind of a recession.

(41:59) Yeah, it’s going to eat the tail here. (42:01) I mean, it’s tail here. (42:02) It’s back to want my company to grow.

(42:05) Okay. (42:05) I know a company that only grows (42:07) at the rate of inflation is not a healthy company. (42:11) I got to, you know, return equity has to be higher (42:13) than the rate of inflation.

(42:15) So if I want my company to grow, (42:17) am I going to pull it on my back? (42:19) Or am I going to get some other brains in here (42:21) who knows some of the stuff better than me?(42:23) Okay. (42:24) Which then another common thing in the past couple of years (42:27) how do I invest in that person who’s that production manager (42:31) or that sales manager is better at this than me (42:34) when we don’t really have the sales. (42:36) Do we hire that person?(42:37) They make it happen or do we limp along (42:40) and magically one day that better person (42:44) can run that department better than me.

(42:45) So it’s the delegation and trust. (42:50) But it’s only, you know, I’m going to be a broken record. (42:52) So to go down to that top one, two, three leaders, (42:56) are they really getting real with who they are (42:58) and how they want to lead? (43:00) Let’s pretend they are.

(43:01) Let’s dig in on this a little bit. (43:02) Okay, go for it. (43:03) Let’s pretend that they are.

(43:04) They’re there. (43:04) So they’re boom. (43:06) They’re leading conscious emotional boom.

(43:08) And they’re looking at that, you know, (43:09) they’re looking for growth. (43:10) Yep.(43:13) When you hire that next person (43:16) or you give that next person the opportunity.

(43:18) They might be internal, sure. (43:21) One of the things that I look for is, you know, (43:25) are they, and I’ll ask you this question. (43:28) So my question to people is, is, you know, (43:31) what are you reading? (43:33) What are you watching? (43:34) Whether that’s podcasts, shows, books, articles, magazines.

(43:38) What are you consuming on a regular basis? (43:41) That and how is it currently shaping your thinking? (43:45) I like that. (43:45) Okay, because that tells me, I mean, (43:49) if you saw what I’m consuming in terms of information (43:54) you think I’m schizophrenic, right? (43:57) Right. (43:58) Now you have to add Python coding.

(44:00) Right. (44:00) Yeah. (44:00) If I’m going to keep pace with them.

(44:02) But, and that’s not a brag. (44:04) That’s actually more of like a confession (44:05) because I feel distracted (44:07) because I’m almost consuming too much stuff at once. (44:10) But what I’m looking for is I’m looking (44:13) for that lifelong learner sort of behavior in others.

(44:19) And so no matter what the position, (44:20) that’s kind of a core trait. (44:21) It’s a core trait that I’m asking. (44:23) That I’m asking for now.

(44:24) Now that’s just that, well, for any position. (44:27) So in my organization, I actually interview (44:29) almost everybody that interviews with our company. (44:33) They start with me and they’re getting a cultural checkbox.

(44:36) Yes, no. (44:37) So that’s how you mindfully can help shape. (44:39) And so I start there.

(44:40) But so one of the questions I’m asking is that (44:42) that’s not a pass fail question(44:44) because in some of the roles in the company, (44:46) it’s not necessary, but I like it.(44:50) I certainly like it. (44:51) And I don’t find that you can train that in somebody.

(44:58) Like there’s like, it’s almost like there’s an appetite. (45:01) I can’t train curiosity. (45:02) You can’t train curiosity.

(45:03) I like that statement. (45:06) Do you find, let’s just use that statement and build off it.(45:09) Do you find that you can’t train curiosity (45:12) or can you inspire it? (45:15) Can you really, really beautiful question.

(45:17) Have you seen it anywhere? (45:20) Yeah, I have seen it. (45:21) I’m sorry. (45:21) Have you seen it develop? (45:23) Yes.

(45:23) Okay. (45:27) And I’m going to go back to sort of the root of EQ. (45:32) You know, what am I waking up in the morning and trying to do? (45:37) How am I think, how do I think I’m going to win? (45:42) But when you do a little bit of self-reflection regulation, (45:46) you realize, hey, I’m pushing too hard.

(45:48) Sometimes we just quit on our life. (45:50) We don’t think we can get there. (45:53) And then actually realizing, you know, (45:56) sort of self-validation opens up curiosity.

(45:59) But what can a leader do though to open that up to help somebody? (46:03) Because I think that that’s a block that the other person may have. (46:07) You know, so what if I ask the question of somebody and I say, (46:09) hey, what are you listening to, reading, consuming?(46:13) And they just say, I’m a gamer. (46:14) I’m, as soon as I’m done with work, I’m gaming.

(46:17) Okay. (46:17) How can I influence that person to say, (46:20) Well, you got to build trust.(46:21) You know, there’s, okay.

(46:24) So they may not be as a vocatious talker. (46:29) They might be more introvert than you and your wife. (46:32) Sure.

(46:33) So build trust first. (46:36) And then possibly, and I’ll call it back to the peer to peer.(46:41) Okay.

(46:41) They see other people. (46:42) Hey, I just read this cool book or I was on this trip. (46:45) Okay.

(46:45) That gives permission to be that. (46:49) They may never have had permission to be curious. (46:52) I mean, we’re just sort of brainstorming here, but.

(46:54) Sure. (46:54) Maybe curiosity was dangerous. (46:56) Yeah.

(46:57) Killed the cat. (46:58) We had to come back to that. (46:58) That’s a good one.

(46:59) Okay. (46:59) I would add one other thing to that. (47:01) That question though, would be a good EQ question in an interview for any level.

(47:07) You know, what was a major, what was a big thing you made happen and how’d you do it? (47:14) Okay. (47:14) And then you’re going to listen for the I versus the we statements. (47:17) Okay.

(47:18) And then the one I like is, you know, what’s tell me about one of your biggest screw ups(47:22) and what’d you learn from them? (47:25) Then you’ll learn if the, how much of the journey towards humility and (47:28) vulnerability and authenticity they’ve done. (47:30) And you can’t don’t reject them if they’re not there. (47:32) Cause it, it is.

(47:33) Yeah. (47:33) I understand. (47:34) It takes work.

(47:35) So, so let’s, let’s turn this back now to you. (47:38) And the question that I’m asking you is what are the books, podcasts, shows, (47:43) whatever that you’re watching right now that you’re there helping shape your thinking right now? (47:46) What shows? (47:48) Oh, wow.(47:49) A lot more shows than podcasts.

(47:52) Okay. (47:55) Books. (47:56) I like fantasy kind of fiction where it’s sort of magical and they are wielding swords.

(48:01) And I’ve read so many business books and psychology books in my life. (48:05) I’m just sort of past that phase. (48:06) It’s sort of like, okay.

(48:08) Every once in a while, I add more to that, to that. (48:10) One of the go-to books I’ve always recommend though, folks is the four agreements from (48:18) simple grabs a lot. (48:19) What we discussed today in a really simple.

(48:21) I love just, you can just download the PDF of the four agreements. (48:25) And yeah, it’s allowed this human consciousness really package in an accessible way. (48:32) Actually in movies, most, I like watching Turner classic movies with my 14 year old.

(48:35) Great. (48:36) Whether it’s the mortal storm or the old Jimmy Stewart movie. (48:41) Is that meditative then for you too? (48:43) Yeah.

(48:43) And he gets the joke. (48:44) So we crack up and my wife just thinks we’re nuts because she doesn’t. (48:47) So it’s restorative for you because you’re relaxing, but you’re also bonding with yourself.

(48:52) And his brain back to your, that interview question, his brain gets that stuff. (48:57) So I can share that with him. (48:59) Sure.

(48:59) Maybe I might nudge with you as the person who maybe gets that answer. (49:02) The challenges are, where will their passion? (49:05) Let me be patient, not cynical. (49:08) Let’s see where their passion pops.

(49:13) That may not be in the channel that you and I would pop. (49:16) Yeah, sure. (49:17) Sure.

(49:18) Like talking about, you know, in a restaurant about this crazy shit. (49:22) Who would you say, let’s talk about the whoever, now before whoever, let’s ask this. (49:34) Where have you shown and exhibited, you know, courage and faith or courage or faith? (49:40) I don’t know, depending on what maybe your belief system is, but what role has courage (49:44) or faith played in your life, would you say? (49:49) That could be, you could reference a jumping off point of something that really.

(49:53) Well, I didn’t jump out of an airplane. (49:55) So no, not that. (49:56) No courage there.

(49:59) And faith in my faith is more of sort of a transcendental pragmatist. (50:02) So we won’t open that package right now. (50:09) I think the courage is when you asked me before that three-year-old boy.

(50:14) I can feel that in my eyes. (50:16) They kind of tear up that he knew he was too scared of life. (50:21) And then he had to learn a way not to be so scared.

(50:23) But you weren’t three when you recognized, when you. (50:26) Well, that’s when the pattern was there, four or five. (50:29) I knew I was afraid of death at four or five years old.

(50:33) Okay. (50:33) Okay. (50:34) And when did you, when did you finally let go of that? (50:37) Well, I’m still working.

(50:39) Oh, that’s right. (50:39) I’ve heard. (50:40) Technology, guys.

(50:40) Everything circles in one. (50:41) No, no. (50:42) Black or white, done or not done.

(50:44) That was just a mistake. (50:46) Holy moly. (50:46) When, at what point in your life do you feel like you made the most progress? (50:51) It’s iterative.

(50:52) It’s like peeling. (50:52) When did you start though? (50:54) When did you start? (50:54) That five-year-old boy. (50:56) When I went to clipping lessons and I cried and thought I was going to drown.

(51:01) That’s when the fear started. (51:02) I’m talking, when did you, when were you an adult?(51:04) And you started to say, okay, this is something I got to, I got to work on this. (51:10) Well, it was not an age or a date.

(51:12) It just was continuous. (51:14) When did you start working? (51:14) Did you start working on it? (51:16) Yeah. (51:17) My curiosity was since I was little.

(51:19) Yeah. (51:19) Okay. (51:19) That’s how I’m wired.

(51:21) That’s the thinker feeler. (51:23) And it just keeps getting better and encourages that you keep peace. (51:26) You have to encourage to face my own fear.

(51:29) Every day. (51:31) And the more I do it, the more I enjoy people around me. (51:36) The more grace I give myself, the more grace I give you.

(51:38) And it’s just way more fun. (51:42) Got it. (51:42) Than that scared little boy’s life.

(51:46) Awesome. (51:46) Maybe he didn’t have an okay life, but inside. (51:49) He was eating up.

(51:50) He was eating, eating up. (51:52) Hello, your brother. (51:52) Who are, who are the people that you could say, is there, is there one or two people (51:56) that you could say, wow, big influence maybe in the last 10 years? (52:01) Who’s a, who’s an influence the last 10 years for you? (52:07) If you say me, I know you’ll make, you’re making it up.

(52:11) Well, I’m going to, I still want to go back to that high school boy who was searching(52:14) and you know, he was shy and overthinker. (52:18) I read a book, maybe ninth grade by a guy named Tom Brown, Jr. (52:23) Who was a wilderness survivalist. (52:26) And he, and he was, there’s some controversy.

(52:28) He said he was raised by an impact, you know, his best friend’s grandfather was an Apache (52:32) Indian who taught them the old ways of being a scout. (52:35) Okay. (52:35) Something about his philosophy and him talking that deep level resonated with me.

(52:40) And who was that? (52:41) Tom Brown, Jr. (52:42) Tom Brown. (52:42) Just recently passed. (52:43) Okay.

(52:43) What was the name of the book? (52:44) The Tracker. (52:45) Tracker. (52:47) Um, and then, you know, for years, you know, I’ve read other, you know, (52:52) Yalom and there’s all, people come at different times, but truthfully, you know, in my life, (52:59) family is important.

(53:02) My son and daughter and wife and, you know, but really the vistage peers, even as chair,(53:10) I feel like we’ve all made each other’s lives better. (53:13) Yeah. (53:13) I’ve really honestly got no past 10 years.

(53:15) That has been the most impactful tribe. (53:18) Okay. (53:20) You know, there’s many tribes in a life.

(53:22) Yeah. (53:22) It’s been my most impactful tribe. (53:24) That’s great.

(53:24) That’s great. (53:25) That’s really good. (53:26) The cool thing is, is for you too, is that, that, you know, you get the, you do get an (53:30) annual validation, you know, when the person continues to re up with you and say, Hey, I (53:35) want you as my, I want you as my coach, as my mentor, as my chair.

(53:40) You know, part of that though, is I got to keep growing. (53:42) You do. (53:42) That’s where the PR comes in and the work.

(53:45) Just the same as a CEO. (53:46) When the CEO gets stagnant, the company’s going to be stagnant. (53:52) So what’s next? (53:54) Anything next on the agenda for you of where you’re going, what you’re doing? (53:58) I like this podcast thing.

(54:00) I like what you’re doing. (54:01) So I might have to play with an emotional intelligence version of this. (54:05) I’m working on a book with one of my CEOs about the 12 steps of mindset change, sort (54:11) of playing off of AA steps, but flipping them towards consciousness.

(54:20) More speaking on the docket? (54:22) Yeah. (54:22) I love the keynote and the impact.(54:24) I mean, that’s, there’s 200 accountant CEOs in the room and they’re going to affect 40,000 (54:30) staff and another 200,000 clients.

(54:34) So yeah, I’d love to do that before I, if five of those people get a nugget, they go (54:39) if they spread in the world. (54:41) Because I’d really do it. (54:42) EI and AI, right? (54:43) EI and AI.

(54:44) Yeah. (54:44) That’s the name of the podcast. (54:45) EQ and AI? (54:46) Yeah.

(54:47) EQ and AQ. (54:49) And I need to, I’m working on a lavender salve for the little farm.(54:54) Yeah.

(54:54) You know what? (54:54) We didn’t talk about that. (54:56) So, so in addition to everything else that Eric has going on, he, he owns a lavender farm (55:02) in Northern Michigan, which is, which consists of lots of plants and lots of bees. (55:09) Lots of 40, 4,500 plants and a bajillion, 400,000 bees who are semi-dormant right now.

(55:16) I just checked on the other day. (55:18) They’re all, I took a thermal imaging camera.(55:19) They’re all doing good in there.

(55:20) Okay. (55:21) Great. (55:21) And the unique thing about, you know, your farm there is, is that they create lavender (55:26) honey because they, they feed on the pollen of the, of the lavender all summer.

(55:30) Yep. (55:31) And it just gives it the amazing little hint. (55:34) Vintage.

(55:36) So we’ll put some links on the, on the podcast page for, for the, for that. (55:41) If anybody wants to order a gallon or two. (55:43) Well, yeah, you’ll get the Matt Luria discount if you order a gallon.

(55:47) We’ll get you a coupon code. (55:49) So, and you don’t have to order a gallon. (55:50) You can just order a couple ounces or whatever.

(55:53) Yeah. (55:53) We’ll do a little discount. (55:54) We’ll do a little auction.

(55:54) Awesome. (55:55) There you go. (55:56) Podcast discount.

(55:56) I like it. (55:57) Appreciate it. (55:57) I like it.

(55:58) Well, always great to sit with you. (56:00) Always great to chat. (56:01) Anything else you want to share before we wrap it up? (56:05) Well, the holidays are coming folks.

(56:07) So, well, I don’t know when this is going to show, but this, the holidays are coming.(56:10) This may not show till July. (56:12) Celebrate with the people you love.

(56:14) Amen. (56:15) Amen. (56:15) Thank you for thanks.

(56:16) Great conversation. (56:17) Eric, Sean, Larson. (56:18) Thank you.

(56:18) Thank you. (56:19) You too.