(0:00) Welcome to the BLTNT podcast. I’m your host, Matt Loria, serving up real stories of business, (0:05) life, technology, and transformations. You’ll hear from interesting people about big changes (0:09) from career shifts to life-altering decisions, and the innovations that help make it all happen. 

(0:14) It’s about sharing those lightbulb moments, pivot points, challenges overcome, and the journeys (0:19) that inspire us to think differently. If you’re on the lookout for insights to propel you forward, (0:23) stories that resonate, or just a bit of inspiration on your next BLTNT move,(0:27) you’re in the right place. Let’s dig in. 

All right, welcome to the BLTNT podcast. I’m Matt (0:42) Loria, and I am here with my guest, Ben Doornbos. I’m actually your guest in your own home here. 

(0:49) It’s nice to be here, Matt. Thank you. We’re here at Nub’s Nob in Northern Michigan. 

We’re (0:54) doing the inaugural BLTNT podcast world, well, Northern Michigan tour. So Ben,(1:00) you’re the first victim. It’s an honor. 

(1:03) We appreciate it. You’re no stranger to doing podcasts. I’ve watched you, listened to you,(1:16) so you should be pretty comfortable doing this, right? (1:18) Yeah, I’ve done a few of these. 

One of the things that I think is so cool about this medium (1:23) is it allows us to get into a conversation and explain things a little bit better, (1:28) especially in the ski world. We’ll do a lot of interviews with media, but they tend to be (1:33) very short. And so this is kind of fun for me to be able to talk a little bit more about the (1:37) philosophy of the ski area and our business. 

It’s a great opportunity. Thank you. (1:41) That’s awesome. 

That’s what I’ve been hoping for. I mean, you and I have had probably hundreds of (1:45) conversations that last under five minutes because they’ve been on a chairlift ride. (1:50) That’s right. 

(1:51) So this is our chance to sit down and have a little bit longer. So I’m glad we’re doing it.(1:56) Ben, you’ve got a really cool life. 

I think your life story is pretty neat, how you ended up here. (2:03) Can you kind of explain, I guess maybe start off explaining what your job is here today, (2:07) a little bit about your family and everything, but then let’s kind of go back to the beginning (2:11) and figure out how the heck you got here. (2:13) Sure. 

So my name is Ben Dorenbos, and I’m the general manager of Nubs Nob Ski Area here in (2:19) Harbor Springs. And I’ve had that title for seven years, but I’ve been here since 2008. So I’ve been (2:25) here for a while. 

And it’s a wonderful place to work and wonderful people to work with. I’m very, (2:31) very, very blessed. But the way I got here, you know, I guess like every story, (2:37) it’s just not a straight line. 

But it basically started with… (2:43) Well, you followed a girl here. (2:45) Well, there is that. There is that. 

There is that for sure. But I started as a college dropout, (2:51) essentially, and left college because I was interested in hiking the Appalachian Trail. (2:56) At age 19, I spent six months hiking. 

And then when I got back, I worked for a little while (3:04) as a baker in a bakery and saved up enough money so I could take a trip down the Mississippi River. (3:10) And I floated down the Mississippi River on a basically a raft, a modified pontoon boat with a (3:16) friend of mine. (3:17) Did it have a motor? (3:18) It had a motor that worked sometimes. 

(3:22) And we did that trip. And I was really into basically being a young person, outdoors, (3:28) adventure. And I also realized after the end of those two trips that I probably did need to (3:35) complete my education. 

So at 20 years old, I went to Northern Michigan University. (3:41) I was able to get a degree in outdoor recreation and management. (3:46) And then, yes, I did meet a girl there who married and her family ties were to Petoskey. 

(3:53) We worked running sailboats for a while, both in the Great Lakes and the Caribbean.(3:59) And during the 2008 economic downturn, a series of circumstances sent us back to Petoskey. (4:07) And the only place I knew of in Petoskey was Nub’s Knob because I had skied here as a young man. 

(4:12) And I applied for a job and was told it was too late in the season because it was late November. (4:18) They called me back a week later and I got a job working for, I think, $8.50 an hour in the (4:24) rental department for the winter. And that’s led me to where I’m at today. 

(4:28) Awesome. You gave me a little bit of background on when you were running the charter business. (4:34) So it was in the Spanish Virgin Islands. 

And you were running some pretty nice equipment down (4:39) there. Talk a little bit about that. Well, post-college sailing became a huge part of my life (4:45) and I loved everything about it. 

And once you get into that world, you meet a lot of people. (4:53) And probably the coolest job I had was running a guy’s 42-foot private sailboat. And we sailed it (5:00) down from his home in Boston, myself and some friends, down to the Spanish Virgin Islands, (5:06) Calabria, where he had a place down that way. 

And the fun thing for me was his wife hated to sail. (5:14) So my whole job was to keep the boat nice with my girlfriend at the time, now wife, (5:19) for his family. But then when they would show up, they would sail for a couple hours and then the (5:25) guy’s wife, the owner’s wife, said, well, that’s about enough for me. 

So the rest of the time, (5:30) we had to enjoy the boat for the two of us and explore the Virgin Islands. And we also ran (5:36) private charters on the sailboat. And for a young man, that was kind of a (5:42) awesome dream. 

And I’m lucky that I was able to do that. That’s great. That’s great. 

You said that (5:47) kind of, but those circumstances are what got you here. You had told me that all of a sudden, (5:53) one day that guy stopped answering his phone. Well, yeah, he had created an index to the stock (5:59) market. 

And that’s how he had made his money. And I was working for him. And after a single season(6:06) on the boat, he said, this is really cool. 

I think we need to have a bigger boat. Maybe my (6:10) wife would like that. And so he told me to pick out a 50-foot boat and kind of gave me a price (6:16) range. 

We had the boat picked out. We were about to close the deal on it. And then, yeah, 08 happened. 

(6:23) And he just stopped returning emails, stopped returning phone calls. And here I was at the (6:28) end of my sailing season in Lake Superior where we were living in northern Minnesota. And I had (6:34) no job. 

And I had no idea what had happened to the job I did have. So that’s why we ended up (6:40) at Petoskey. Liz had a job working for her dad. 

So that’s where you were. You were coming back (6:44) that winter. You were going to go back to the Virgin Islands. 

That didn’t work out. Ended up (6:47) back here then. Yep. 

Yep, exactly. It was an accident. There’s a lot worse places you can end (6:51) up. 

I can say that. No, it was really fortunate. That’s great. 

And I was joking with you. You have (7:03) the most coveted job in northern Michigan. You’re running one of the most unique, (7:08) I don’t know if we should call it boutique or how you might call it, nubs knob, (7:13) one of the best ski areas in the state, in my belief. 

But it’s kind of a niche, right? (7:21) Yeah, it is. I mean, you’re right. It’s a real blessing to have this job and to work with the (7:25) people I do and work with the owners that we have. 

This ski area has been owned by the Fisher (7:30) family since 1977. One family has owned it. And they are the best type of owners you could (7:37) possibly imagine. 

They’re the kind of people who are not taking out of the business. They just (7:41) constantly put in. And Elise, who I work for, she just has basically one question for me all the (7:47) time. 

What can I do to help? And what do you think we need to do to make the ski area better? (7:52) And to have a job like that and have that sort of a freedom, it’s a unique thing. And you can(7:58) feel it as a customer. I think you feel that somebody really cares about this place. 

(8:03) Yeah, I was mentioning to her, it feels like more of a stewardship than an ownership, (8:09) right? That they’re stewards of this place or you’re stewards of this place, (8:14) you know, maintaining kind of the special uniqueness of it while still growing it (8:19) appropriately. But it never feels like, it always feels like it’s ours to share as a (8:26) seasoned pass holder. It doesn’t feel like it’s a company you’re visiting. 

It feels like a home. (8:32) Yeah, I appreciate that. And I’ll write you the check after. 

(8:37) Okay, good. We’ll do cash on that. This is fine. 

But, you know, you said (8:45) growing up though, grew up in Holland, Michigan. Your dad was a preacher. Because one of the things (8:51) we had been talking about was, you know, how does this guy who’s got this background in, (8:55) you know, outdoor recreation thrive so well in a leadership role? And, you know, you had some (9:03) good foundational people that kind of helped form that for you. 

Can you talk about that and just (9:08) share that a little bit? Yeah, it’s interesting, you know, the crossovers between business and the (9:12) church. And I was able to watch my dad twice in his lifetime, take churches from under 100 (9:22) members of the church to over 1000. And my father was very good at growing churches, (9:27) and he was very good at managing churches and the church culture. 

And I think I was picking up (9:34) lessons from my dad throughout my life on how to do it. And I look at the problems that I have here (9:41) running the ski area. And I can almost always relate to issues that my dad had to deal with (9:47) at the church. 

You know, they too have physical expansions, they’ve got different ideas of what (9:54) we should do next. And, you know, navigating all of that stuff can be difficult. Sure. 

I mean, (9:59) it’s interesting to the parallels of the cultural pieces and the things that the tenets that don’t (10:06) change, right, in a church, right? The beliefs don’t change, but obviously the way that you (10:11) consume it changes, right? Whether that’s an online type of thing or, you know, growing to a satellite (10:17) or something like that. And that kind of has the same overtures to what I see the way that you guys (10:23) run Nubs Nob, right, is there’s a lot of things that stay the same, right? So you always feel (10:28) like you’re getting a similar experience when you come back each year, but things grow, but they (10:33) really grow appropriately. Yeah, I would also say that this place, like a church, people who have (10:40) been skiing here for a long time, they feel as though it’s theirs and that they own a piece of it, (10:46) as do people who are members of a congregation. 

And when you change something, there’s someone (10:53) in the congregation that will be upset. And that’s the same thing at the ski area. And I think (10:58) when you have a brand that people, that they feel some ownership or some stock in, that they love, (11:04) it’s a wonderful thing. 

But you also are going to have people who are always going to say, hey, (11:09) I don’t understand why this anytime something moves at all. Sure. Yeah, it’s interesting. 

(11:14) Well, and like the biggest movement we had here, obviously was COVID, right? And I don’t want to (11:19) obviously talk too much about COVID because we have to move past that. But the lessons that you (11:26) learned and the wisdom that really came out of that and some trial and error and some speed to (11:34) market or speed to make moves, can you talk about that a bit? Yeah, that for me, as a young person (11:40) in this role, working with this really incredible team we have here, the folks that have been at (11:46) been here for years. And we really have this pretty awesome system here as a group of people where, (11:53) you know, this is how we do things. 

But then COVID happened, and we were having to get our leadership (11:58) team together at all these different department levels and rethink it because (12:03) rules were being thrown at us. You know, this is what you’re allowed to do. This is how people (12:07) can and cannot congregate. 

And all of those things made it so that we really had to be (12:14) rethinking how we did things that we just couldn’t do things how we had done them before. (12:20) So it was a fun exercise that didn’t, in retrospect, but at the time, it didn’t seem fun at all. (12:26) But we had to say to ourselves, our business is about bringing people together. 

I mean, (12:31) on a busy day here, we may have 4000 people on property. And okay, how are we going to do that? (12:38) And what is essential to make this thing run? And when we asked ourself that question, there’s (12:43) a couple essential elements to running a ski area, and this one in particular. (12:47) First one is snow. 

You know, we don’t have a business without snow. And so there’s no problem (12:52) with COVID with making snow and grooming snow and making sure that we had the best product possible. (12:57) And then the second element to making this business work is the people, and that we have (13:02) to treat people with kindness and respect and how they want to be treated, just like we’ve done (13:06) throughout the history of Nubs Nob. 

And we knew that in all things, those two points had to be (13:15) true. But indoor dining was not a thing then. You know, going inside at all unmasked was not a thing. 

(13:24) So we had to get super creative. And what we decided to do was we were going to remove all (13:29) the tables and the chairs in the lodge. And we were going to put people counters on the outside (13:34) of the doors. 

So we knew how many people were in the lodge at one time, and we severely limited that.(13:38) But what we didn’t do was take away from the ski experience. We were like, we’re going to be as (13:44) friendly as possible. 

We’re going to put more chairlift operators out there and put more (13:48) people out there to help. And we’re going to let people ski this winter. You know, (13:53) we are going to make sure that skiing happens in northern Michigan. 

And we weren’t going to (13:57) throttle that back. But we did throttle back anything to do with indoors. And I was very proud (14:01) that we had no transmission amongst our staff. 

I didn’t have a single COVID incident amongst our (14:08) 300 employees relating to Nubs Nob. And we also had no reported outbreaks amongst our guests. (14:17) So that was a real win. 

But beyond that, what we hadn’t understood was the fact that (14:24) because the restaurants were shut down, the bowling alleys were shut down, (14:30) and school sports were shut down, you know, people didn’t have a whole lot going on. (14:35) And so they took up skiing, or they came back to skiing. It was kind of this beautiful moment for (14:42) the ski industry where, you know, what can you do during COVID times? Well, you can go outside. 

(14:47) And what can you do in Michigan? Well, ski, you know, there’s ice fish, maybe snowmobile a little (14:52) bit, but skiing was the big answer. And what we saw at that time was our business just went wild. (14:59) And what we anticipated was, okay, after we get through this and school sports start back up, (15:05) we’re going to see a downturn again, this was a one off, but it has not been that way. 

It’s (15:09) actually been quite the opposite that each year builds upon itself, which I think speaks a lot (15:14) to the experience that people have that Nubs Nob and other ski areas in the region, that it’s a (15:20) thing to do with your family. Yeah, you know, well, I think skiing too, it’s got such a big (15:24) hump to overcome to get out there the first time. And then once you do, it’s a lot easier, (15:31) right? So I know like you guys have put together the learn, I can’t remember what it’s called, (15:34) but the it’s a learn to ski type of program. 

Yeah, we put together this program last year (15:39) called 2024 a ski odyssey. And now we’re in 2025, a ski odyssey. And what it is, (15:44) it’s a learn to ski program, right? skiing has one of the worst attrition rates of any sport. 

(15:50) It’s like, it’s something ridiculous. Like if you’ve never skied, and you just show up to a(15:55) ski area, you have chances of coming back, it’s actually like 5%. Wow, like industry statistics, (16:02) it’s bad. 

The main reason, ski boots, you know, the main reason people don’t come back to ski (16:08) boots, okay, is like, they put this thing on, they just say, I do not understand why anybody (16:12) would be wearing these crazy moon shoes, and all of this insane gear. And, you know, the idea we (16:19) kind of latched on to is this feeling of being like an astronaut in space, okay, with all of this, (16:24) you just, you feel like a fish out of water when you first put on ski gear. And so we said, (16:29) let’s embrace the silliness of this whole thing. 

And we are marketing material was silly, (16:35) with people skiing and astronaut suits and stuff like this. And we have a conveyor lift here, (16:43) that’s got a tube on it. And it’s got all these spacey lights, and we call it the space worm. 

So (16:48) played into our beginner slope. But the idea was, we’re going to spend time with folks, (16:55) and we’re going to make sure that the ski boots fit. If that’s as far as we get in this lesson, (17:00) so be it. 

But the lesson was $50 included, the lesson, the rentals, the lift ticket, (17:07) and you come back twice. And at the end of the second time, you have a card, and the instructor (17:12) says, hey, I noticed you doing well in these areas, this is where you can work. And you could (17:17) take that card and go to our ticket window and get a bargain pass for just 100 bucks for the rest(17:22) of the ski season. 

Oh, cool. And the other thing you could do is go to our local ski retailer, (17:27) the Bahnhof, and they would give you $100 off a full ski package. Because the idea here was not (17:33) just to have skiing be something you did, right? Like, we wanted people to say, I am a skier. 

And (17:41) that that is how we think we’re going to build the sport here at nubs knob is not just somebody (17:45) who, you know, skiing is something I do. We want you to say no, I am a skier.(17:49) This is how I identify. 

(17:50) And so how do you go from being a person who, you know, has never done the sport to saying, (17:57) this is me, I am a skier. (17:59) Yeah, I never thought about the, I mean, I always thought, you know, the barrier to entries, (18:02) obviously the money, right? The distance that you have to go, you got to go stay somewhere (18:07) and everything. But then, you know, I never really thought about the parallel of, (18:12) um, or not the parallel, but the tie into where COVID kind of inspired people to get out there (18:18) and do it. 

And, you know, you didn’t have anything else to do. So you had money. (18:21) Yeah. 

(18:22) So you could go spend it. You didn’t have anything else you could go do. You had the time. 

(18:26) Yeah. (18:26) So you go do it. And now this is kind of the build off of that to say, okay, this is something we (18:30) learned about there, which is take away the barrier, take away a couple of the barriers. 

(18:34) And, uh, and then you also said with the attrition rate being low, (18:38) you got to get them to come back a couple of times, right? Get used to it. (18:41) Yes. (18:42) Right. 

Get, get past that first big hump. (18:44) Right. (18:45) And that’s what gets them to, uh, gets them to stay. 

(18:47) And we, we thought the season pass and the gear part of this beginner lesson was so essential (18:52) because anybody who self identifies as a skier, uh, they have two things. They have a season pass (18:58) and they have ski equipment. Um, if you are a daily ticket buyer who is renting, you are a person who (19:05) go skiing versus a person who says, I am a skier. 

(19:09) Got it. (19:10) And that’s the real, that’s why we had that incorporation. (19:13) That’s funny. 

Yeah. (19:14) The, um, um, part of your guys, uh, success and business model, and maybe it’s, maybe it’s all (19:20) over the industry. I don’t know. 

You know, you, you know, the industry is the, the season pass, (19:27) right. And it does so many things for the buyer and for the seller. Um, talk about that a little (19:34) bit more because, uh, you know, I want, I want people to understand kind of the, the essential (19:38) nature of that and how it kind of binds the person to the, to the organization. 

(19:43) Well, I appreciate you giving me a platform to rant here for a second. Um, because if your (19:49) listeners are not skiers, um, the storyline out there is the sport is being ruined by high price (19:56) lift tickets. And it’s true that some of the out West, um, resorts are charging over $300 now for (20:03) a daily lift ticket. 

And you look at that as a casual person and you just say, this is insane. (20:08) You know, and then you see the, the long lift lines at, um, you know, the, uh, the Vale resorts (20:13) and some of the other big, uh, big out West resorts. And you just say, why would anybody (20:17) get into this? It’s insanely expensive and the lines are just crazy. 

Well, um, the reverse side (20:25) of that. And what I think is the actual truth right now in the ski industry is it’s, it’s the (20:29) worst time to be a person who just shows up at the ticket window on a Saturday has no idea what’s (20:36) going on. And it’s just says, uh, here I am, here’s my wallet. 

Um, if you are interested in (20:43) skiing, uh, right now in the market, you need to plan ahead. You absolutely have to plan ahead. (20:49) But if you plan ahead, you have some of the best deals that have ever existed in the ski industry. 

(20:54) Um, the season pass ratio, when I started this job was something on average in the,(20:59) in the industry was like 10 to 12 to one, meaning like if you ski 10 to 12 times, (21:06) you might be better off buying a daily lift ticket, but now industry averages more like five (21:11) or six to one. So really, if you’re going to ski five or six times, you ought to buy a season pass.(21:18) Um, but if you don’t, yeah, there’s, there’s a penalty there. 

Um, but I think it, it actually (21:24) benefits ski areas, which benefits the skier because, you know, we can plan on our revenue a (21:30) little bit better when we’re getting those season pass dollars early on. Um, and the, the, um, what (21:35) we’ve seen to last winter was the warmest winter on history, uh, for us here at nubs knob. Um, (21:41) but our rev wasn’t so crazy up and down. 

And had that happened to us 20 years ago, (21:47) uh, you really would have an off, off season. Um, so for the ski areas, it allows us to kind of (21:53) plan our capital, uh, better. Now it’s true too. 

You might not hit, um, the major (21:58) grand slams or home runs when you have tons of snow and everything’s awesome, but to even out (22:04) the business model, I think is a good thing for ski areas and ultimately for skiers. But, um, (22:10) I just want to flip that script a little bit for the people that are listening, that are interested (22:14) in getting into the sport that, you know, don’t show up to a ski area on a Saturday, uh, having (22:19) not purchased at least a lift ticket ahead of time, almost everywhere. You S you save money by (22:24) buying a ticket ahead of time. 

Um, but better yet, if you’re going to get into the sport, (22:29) um, by a season pass, and it doesn’t have to be a season pass to nubs knob. (22:33) Uh, there’s a thing called the indie pass right now, which is less than $300. And it gets you (22:37) access to, um, like 200 plus ski areas in North America, um, for 300 bucks. 

And you can visit (22:45) these places two times in Michigan alone. We have, um, I think seven or eight, um, really (22:51) solid ski areas on that. And you pass including nubs knob. 

Uh, so, you know, this is a better (22:56) deal than when I was a child, uh, growing up skiing and we, you know, we would do, uh, you (23:01) know, it’s not a lot of money in, uh, pastoring. So we would find every way we could to, um, you (23:07) know, get a deal, but this is, this is, uh, uh, uh, something that my dad, when I was a youngster, (23:12) I would have loved to have jumped right on. Oh yeah. 

He would have been all about. Yeah. (23:16) Yeah. 

And I remember, I mean, I remember being a kid before we had a, um, a place in the area here,(23:20) always doing the math. And it was that 10, 11, 12 days before you were going to get breakeven (23:26) on a season pass. And now it’s only, you know, four or five, six, depending on if it’s a holiday (23:31) or whatever, but it just makes total financial sense. 

I love the balance though, because (23:36) remember most of the people watching, um, this podcast in particular, our business leaders, (23:41) typically mid-market business leaders are kind of our demographic that watches this, uh, watches (23:46) or listens to this podcast. And so I know they’re listening from the perspective of the revenue (23:51) model, right. And going, oh, okay. 

Planned revenue. If we know going into the season, (23:56) what revenue is looking like, you know, what sales are looking like, you can then make appropriate (24:00) investment decisions. And this, this business is very capitally intensive here. 

I mean, (24:05) I think you said that there’s more money in the tools to run this place than the land is even (24:10) worth. Yeah. Yeah. 

The, the stuff that sits on the land is worth more than the land. Yes. (24:14) Wild. 

Yeah. And you just put a new chairlift in, um, two years ago. (24:19) Uh, last winter was our first year with a brand new chairlift. 

Yep. And you know, (24:23) very capital intensive project. Um, but it was something that we felt like it was time to do. 

(24:28) Yeah. I like, um, I like to, some of the ways that, uh, I shouldn’t say I like what COVID did.(24:35) Um, you know, I, I like some of the things that have come out of it and the planning(24:39) and the thoughtfulness, um, your own leadership. 

Um, there’s some efficiencies that you said, (24:47) you said you really stepped it up. You grew as a leader, uh, during COVID, (24:51) especially based on communication and the directness and the speed of communication. (24:56) Can you talk about that and just share maybe a tool or two that you used or just how you (25:00) leveraged email differently, or how did you keep 300 people informed? Um, you know, and before you (25:07) go on, let me actually, let me say this, this location is in Harbor Springs, very small town. 

(25:13) The rumor mill can, can run amok in, in Harbor Springs. It’s a small town, right? It can do(25:17) that in any small town. Um, but you have to, you had to get ahead of messaging. 

Um, you had to (25:24) clearly articulate messages to 300 people that work here and all the constituents of the, you (25:30) know, the families that, that ski here. So kind of elaborate on some of that stuff. (25:34) It was wild. 

And during that time, I would be getting emails from customers about, you know, (25:41) the, the, the raw truth was we were sitting here in the fall, um, coming into that first year (25:46) operating under a COVID restrictions, not knowing fully if we actually were going to be allowed to. (25:52) So like November, December, 2020, 2020. Yes. 

That was the, that was where. (25:57) 2021 I think. Yeah. 

Yeah. Anyways, but yeah, 2020 into 2021. (26:02) Right. 

The 2020 to 2021 season. Yeah. Yeah. 

We were coming into that ski season. Um, and there (26:09) was new restrictions coming out all the time, new guidelines, things would look like they were (26:13) going to progress and then it would, uh, go the other way. Um, so the truth was we really didn’t (26:18) know what we were going to be allowed to do or, um, not allowed to do. 

We thought the whole time (26:25) that, you know, we had witnessed outdoor recreation was something that could happen. (26:29) So we were pretty confident that we could do that. Um, and at a certain point, because of, (26:35) as you say, the rumor mill, um, so many questions from season pass holders, from staff, people, (26:40) and my own inability to sleep, uh, it was, you know, we, as a group of people here need to just (26:47) make our own decisions. 

It’s time to take our fate in our hands and let’s make a plan and let’s (26:54) plan on worst case scenario. And we wrote those things down department by department and how we (26:59) were going to do it, um, based on worst case scenarios. And once we had what we thought was(27:05) a pretty good plan, we put out a series of videos, which was basically me walking around the ski (27:10) area, um, with a guy with a camera pointed at me and I would just talk like, Hey, when you park (27:16) your car, this is what it’s going to look like. 

You’re not going to go in this store. You’re going (27:20) to go right to the lift. And here’s how we’re going to do these things. 

What do you do when (27:25) you get hungry? What do you do when you have to use the bathroom? And we just addressed this in, (27:30) um, videos and people loved it, you know? And I think it also, I noticed that my inbox kind of (27:38) stopped with all of the questions and, you know, what’s happening next. And, um, it calmed down (27:44) my staff, it calmed myself down. Um, and that was, that was critical. 

And, you know, that was (27:50) kind of, um, I guess ski patrol language, you could say it was a triage type situation of, (27:57) uh, of how we were going to address these concerns. But, um, moving forward now out of those times (28:04) and, um, in back in a normal business operations, I have used that tool more. And I think that if (28:11) you’re talking to folks, just like we’re talking right now, and they can, um, if it’s not scripted, (28:16) if they can hear your thought process, I like to do videos on the chairlift where I’m just (28:20) talking to folks about what we’re seeing. 

And in the last winter, the truth was, um, Hey, it’s (28:26) going to be warm during the holidays and we’d like to be a hundred percent open. It’s not going to (28:30) happen. Uh, but here’s what we are going to do. 

And I think that having confidence to speak (28:37) in that tone and in that manner to people, um, they really appreciate. And I, but I don’t think (28:42) that I was brave enough or, um, and I think it’s not just me that this you want to rely on this (28:49) marketing and telling folks things are really great all the time. But what we found is you’re (28:54) getting better brand loyalty by just telling people what’s going on. 

Yeah. I mean, you, you, (29:00) you are one of the influences to why we shifted to so much video, uh, in our organization as I was (29:06) watching these messages go out and I’m going, everybody’s kept up to date. This is unbelievable, (29:11) you know? And, um, so we invested in the video cameras and everything like that to be able to (29:17) do more of it. 

And then, and then eventually ended up adding this podcast, but another, um, (29:22) another Northern Michigan, uh, company that the Monti companies, I was there visiting, (29:26) uh, one of the guys and he wasn’t there and, uh, walked into one of the rooms and I saw a video (29:31) camera and I said, Hey, what are you guys? It was, it was their, um, administrative assistant(29:36) was walking me around. So what do you guys do with all this? She says, Oh my gosh. You know, (29:39) it’s a company wide. 

We’re totally embracing, you know, just talking to people truthfully, (29:45) more clearly, uh, as much as we can. She shows me this book, it’s called, they ask you answer. (29:49) So I’m smiling as you’re, as you’re talking about this, cause it’s the same mantra, (29:53) which is basically like, just tell people the straight truth, you know, and good things come (29:59) from it. 

Right. And that’s that, that transparency piece versus otherwise you’re going to be at the(30:05) risk of, or at the mercy of the rumor mill. Oh, no, it’s not a shutting down or the, you know, (30:10) did you hear that? The chair is, you know, whatever. 

And you hear all this stuff. And it’s (30:14) like, and then like you said, you’re who would have thought that by-product of your inbox (30:19) actually went down. Yeah. 

You know, that, that’s, that’s a great by-product that told you, I mean, (30:24) to me, that’s telling you it’s working, it’s working, right. The people are listening. They (30:28) got the, they got the information they needed. 

And then you look at your own revenues and your (30:33) own ticket counts and you go, and they’re responding, they’re actually listening and (30:37) they’re still buying from me as I tell them that. From a revenue standpoint at that time too, (30:42) that’s when the season pass sales started to coming in. You know, I think people were wondering, (30:47) should I put the money out there for a season pass? Cause you know, for a family of four, (30:52) it can be a pretty big outlay of money to purchase that season pass. 

And they’re looking (30:57) for some assurance. There were other ski areas that had policies in place. Like if we can’t do (31:04) this, then we’re going to refund X amount. 

And here’s our, you know, and, and I S we said, (31:11) no, let’s just tell them the truth about what we know what’s going on. And yeah, of course, (31:17) if we can’t open at all, we’re going to roll your pass over to next year. We’re not going to (31:20) just keep your money and charge you again. 

But sure. That was our only assurance. Everything (31:24) else was we’re going to do the best we can. 

And here’s what it is. And I think that (31:29) bill, it gives you more latitude as if your customer base feels like you’re acting in their (31:35) best interest. Sure. 

Yeah. I mean, especially when you say when the, when your customer base (31:40) already feels like they, they own a piece of it. Yeah. 

You almost have to, right? Otherwise (31:44) you start to cannibalize, you know, on that, on that topic of, um, of communication, you know, (31:51) leveraging video, like you’ve been doing. Um, when, when you guys put in the new chairlift, (31:57) it was, it was a year ago, right? Yeah. Um, I remember a communication coming out that talked (32:03) about, it was you on a video talking all about how the decision was made, bringing in a third party, (32:11) you know, doing things that small ski areas, just, I wouldn’t say that they normally do. 

(32:16) They’re bringing in a consultancy, uh, to do that, which I know you, you had mentioned that (32:21) you met them through the, um, the association, the national scary association, but the fact that it (32:27) was so well thought out and then communicated to again, avoid that whole rumor mill that we’ve (32:33) talked about. Can you just kind of talk about that and how, I don’t know if you want to use the word (32:39) freeing or what words you want to use towards it. But it was like, to me, it was just like (32:44) pitch perfect. 

And I’m not just blowing sunshine at you here. It was like, it was, it was spot on. (32:50) Yeah. 

Let me kind of tell a story from the beginning. Um, you know, most ski areas in (32:56) North America that have been around for a while kind of developed in the 1970s. And at that time,(33:00) um, people were putting in fixed grip chairlifts and a fixed grip chairlift means the chair stays (33:06) affixed to the, uh, the cable or the wire rope overhead. 

And it moves at a slower speed. Um, (33:14) now a high-speed chairlift has fewer chairs on the line, but it moves at a faster pace. Um, (33:20) high-speed chairlift costs four or five X what a fixed grip chairlift costs. 

Um, but the technology (33:28) continues to get better. And these chairlifts, um, yeah, they get a skier up the Hill theoretically (33:33) faster than a fixed grip lift. I think you also said though, that the, in the seventies, (33:38) they were throwing, it was just throw as many lifts as you could, wherever you were. 

(33:42) Wasn’t planned out. So that was the philosophy at ski areas in general in like the seventies, (33:46) eighties, um, was put up as many chairlifts as you can, um, because it suspends people in the air. (33:52) It also, uh, if a chairlift breaks down and at that time the machinery wasn’t as reliable, (33:56) Hey, we’ve got a spare right next door. 

Um, so, you know, you look at older ski areas and they (34:02) tend to have a lot of fixed grip lifts on property. Um, we, it was time for us to replace our green (34:08) chairlift. The company no longer exists. 

The parts had become hard to find. And we had some (34:15) capital at that time. We said, you know what a good use of that would be is let’s, let’s put in (34:19) a brand new chairlift. 

It’s been, um, many years since we’ve put in a brand new chairlift. Let’s do (34:23) it. Um, and it was going to be our main chairlift, the one at the front door and huge capital outlay (34:30) bigger than we’ve done in many years. 

Um, so we had to ask ourselves, what are we going to do? (34:36) And when, when the word gets out that we’re considering replacing our main chairlift, (34:40) um, everybody said, yeah, here come the question. Well, it’s going to be high speed, right? Right. (34:45) Cause that’s what you do. 

You know, you buy the most modern equipment. It gets a skier up the, (34:52) the, um, the, the run slightly faster. And it seemed like that was the thing to do. 

(34:59) We wanted to take time to really think about this though. And what we ended up doing to really do (35:05) our homework was bring in a group called the SE group. Uh, they’re a ski area consulting firm. 

(35:11) And this group, uh, I actually knew the, um, the owner of the SE group became a friend of mine (35:17) through, um, my work on the NSAA board. So I talked to him about this conundrum. He said, (35:23) let’s, let’s look at it. 

And they, um, came out here, met with myself, Elise and our, (35:29) our leadership team. I said, Hey, this, this, this ski area, you know, most ski areas, (35:35) what we’re going to tell you is let’s get rid of a few of these old chairlifts, not just one, (35:38) but maybe two or three. And then we’re going to put a high speed chairlift right here, (35:42) right at your front door. 

And generally speaking, that is his advice. And that’s what they would (35:48) tell a ski area to do. They came here, they looked at skier flow. 

They looked at our traffic, (35:53) they looked at our elevation and how long the chairlift ride currently was. And they said, (35:58) that would be a mistake. And, um, that resonated with kind of what, where, with my heart and where (36:05) I was at too. 

Um, but they said, listen, if we do that, um, you’re going to take your skier traffic. (36:12) It’s all going to go to this chairlift. It won’t be distributed throughout the different (36:16) faces of our ski area. 

We’ve got really kind of three different faces and everybody’s going to (36:20) come here. This thing’s going to act as a magnet and all of your skiers are going to show up right (36:25) here. And so the first thing you would see at nubs knob, when you pull in on a busy day (36:28) is a 15 minute line line for this chairlift. 

Right. Um, but keeping it as a fixed grip, (36:36) you know, quote old school lift with modern technology, driving this thing now a cleaner (36:40) drive, more efficiency. Um, and actually it runs, uh, it’s like 30 to 40 seconds faster than the (36:48) top of the hill. 

And I can get into that if you want, but, um, what we’ve done is we’ve kept the (36:53) skier distribution the same. And we’ve also kept some of that old school vibe of the place. (36:58) And frankly, the time savings was not much. 

Um, the other thing that we would have to do (37:03) from a business perspective is we’d have to hire another mechanic to service this thing all the (37:07) time. And the, um, not only the upfront costs so much more, but the maintenance cost is 10 X a year (37:13) on a high, so many moving parts on that. And so we said to purchase this thing, to maintain it. 

(37:19) And then, you know, the skier distribution, this place that is so special to so many people, (37:25) it would be a massive change and not altogether positive. Um, so, (37:32) you know, had we not said anything about the decision and we not put out a video, (37:37) I think what would have happened, I know what would have happened is people would assume, ah,(37:42) no, I was just trying to save money. That’s all it is. 

They don’t want to spend, they don’t want (37:45) to spend the money on this thing. Um, and yeah, okay. Money’s part of it. 

Right. Absolutely. (37:51) Money’s part of it. 

But, um, it wasn’t the only thing. The main thing was what’s the right call (37:57) for the skier. And we really felt, and I still strongly feel that the right thing for the skier (38:03) was this fixed grip chairlift that we, I adore this chairlift. 

It’s wonderful. It’s a smooth (38:09) ride. The chairs are comfortable. 

Um, it, and it, it, it works, um, and it does the job. Um, (38:16) so I think, you know, if you ever get into, uh, if you, if you’re really curious, I did put out (38:23) a video on this thing. I want to make sure that we link your vid, that video in our, in our (38:27) comments of this, uh, of the podcast here. 

So somebody can see it because to me, another business (38:32) leader needs to see this and see where the transparency piece just kind of came alive. (38:38) And again, one more incident where it just shut down all the, all the rumor mill shut down all (38:44) those extra emails that you were going to get. And you were ahead of it. 

And every one of us, (38:49) I can say from my, from my, my own personal opinion is I felt like I was brought into it. (38:54) I was communicated with nothing. You know, I didn’t have to have, I didn’t have to have any (39:00) side conversation on it. 

And, um, it felt right. Well, we wanted the skier to feel like, um, (39:06) Hey, we know you care about this place. We do too. 

And we thought about this hard and I don’t. (39:12) And then we also checked our judgment with other people, called it an expert, called it an expert (39:17) who, you know, we, we know nubs not really well. We didn’t have to do that. 

But when I got to know (39:24) Kent, um, I was like, this, this is a smart guy. Let me ask him the question. And then he actually (39:29) did the work. 

He actually drew up heat maps of skier distribution and put it all in graphs. (39:34) And like, um, you know, I can really geek out on all that stuff, but, um, and he went against the (39:40) grain of his own typical recommendations. So, um, it w it was a super fun exercise for me. 

(39:46) Um, but once we had all of the information, it was important that it didn’t just live in our(39:51) own brain and in our computer, it was important to talk to the skier and say, Hey, we know you (39:57) care about this place. We do too. And this is why we’re doing this. 

I like the, we have a, (40:02) we have one of our performance values at, at Oxium it’s, it’s called anticipate without assuming. (40:06) Yeah. And so one of the things I really love about how you explained is it Ken or Kent? (40:10) Kent. 

Kent, uh, you know, from SE group, how actually went against his typical decision-making(40:18) because as I told you before, I love when I find out through whatever conversation that somebody’s (40:24) a thinker, you know, and can admit being wrong about something. It’s like, Oh, I want to, (40:30) I want a little piece of that. I want to, I want to talk to that person, you know? And (40:33) so I probably had to, had to feel pretty good with your judgment call on him too. 

Right. Saying, (40:39) Hey, I like this guy. Yeah. 

I think he runs a nice business and, uh, and then bring him in. (40:43) And then when, when he gives you that advice, that’s so thoughtful, it’s, it’s really refreshing. (40:48) Yeah. 

It’s really cool to, to have these connections and, and meet these people that, (40:54) you know, are like you say, thoughtful, thoughtful people. And he treated, you know, (40:59) when we, when we were asking them the question, they had more questions for us. It wasn’t just, (41:04) Hey, we’re here to tell you what to do. 

Um, and they spent all the time with my crew, um, in, (41:11) in less time with me, they wanted to know what, uh, the mechanics said, what the, um, (41:16) what our area manager said, what our ownership thought. And, um, you know, I think it’s fun, (41:21) right? And if, if nothing else, you know, in terms of like consulting businesses and stuff, (41:26) if nothing else, just taking time in a slow time of your business to just ask questions, it’s a (41:34) really, it’s a fun exercise and it’s really fun when you’re thinking about ski area management. (41:38) For sure. 

Yeah. For sure. I love that all the people were involved in it too. 

So they felt like, (41:42) you know, your team was, was involved at the ground level too. (41:45) Oh gosh. Yeah. 

This was going to be, had we gone with a high speed chairlift or really the decision (41:51) either way, um, it was so important to have buy-in from the very ground level. So important. (41:57) That’s great. 

This episode of the BLTNT podcast is sponsored by Oxium, (42:01) business IT and cybersecurity designed to outsmart chaos. Empowered by Juniper Networks, (42:07) automate your network with Juniper Networks and the Mist AI platform, (42:10) the world’s first AI driven wired and wireless network. (42:15) Um, there was something you had mentioned about your dad with the, with the churches and how (42:20) taking these churches from a hundred to a thousand. 

And we had talked, uh, about, um, (42:27) you know, you, you said, Hey, this business model is really, (42:30) if I focus first on the season pass holder, everything else kind of falls into line.(42:36) And you’d, I can’t remember if it was Simon Sinek or somebody you had, you had mentioned says, you (42:40) know, get, get those thousand fans. Yeah. 

And, um, and really that’s what you’ve done here. (42:45) That’s what you do when you model after, and you say our primary focus is to serve the season pass (42:51) holder. Good things come from that. 

Can you, can you kind of talk about that and how that spread (42:57) works and how it doesn’t alienate other people as well though? Right. I think it’s a popular (43:01) idea in business and, um, other people have heard this probably before too, but, um, there’s this (43:06) idea of the 1000 true fans that if you’re going to run a successful business, um, you know, (43:11) forget about all the marketing and everything else you need to build it. Just find a thousand people(43:17) that really like your product and are going to tell somebody else about it. 

And nubs has had that (43:22) for years and for generations. But when I, when we, as a company are thinking about, (43:28) you know, who are we talking to, to us, it’s that season pass holder. Um, cause they’re the ones (43:34) that, you know, when the slopes are green and the leaves are still on the trees, they’re saying, (43:40) yeah, I’m going to put the money down for a season pass. 

And we have something like an 80, (43:45) 85% retention rate. So if you’ve bought a season pass with us, you continue to do it. And it’s not (43:50) just year to year, it’s generation to generation. 

You know, we’ve got three, four, five, five (43:55) generations of people who have skied at nubs now. Which generations is good because I think there’s (44:00) what a 30 year wait list on the locker room. It’s a, it’s long. 

It’s very long. Yeah. Um, (44:06) but you know, for us, uh, when we’re making decisions or we’re going to do something (44:12) different, um, for Elise and the, and her family and our leadership team here, we ask ourselves, (44:18) what does this mean for the season pass holder? And it was like, when we joined the Indy pass, (44:23) the season, the season pass we talked about before, we were reluctant to join at first. 

(44:28) And we, um, we were slow to join other ski areas that joined first because we didn’t want to (44:35) overwhelm the ski area with Indy pass visitors, um, and have it negatively affect our season pass (44:43) holders who’d spent their hard earned money to, to, um, be here, you know? And we, we felt like (44:49) that was an important balance to strike. So in all things, um, for our business, I think we think (44:55) who are those true fans and how are we going to continue to cater those folks and make them feel (45:01) that, um, NUBS is a special place for them. Well, I feel like in two with your, with your (45:06) true fans, the true fan is bringing, you know, I mean, I know what we do. 

We’re bringing, we have (45:11) a bunch of kids, so our kids are always bringing friends and then, you know, their parents come. (45:14) And so we’re always saying, Hey, come where are you skiing? Oh, come ski at NUBS, come ski with (45:18) us. Oh, I’ve never skied there before. 

Right. And so we’re, we’re, we’re part of your sales (45:23) department, right? I mean, that’s what your, that’s what your fans are doing. (45:26) Yeah. 

I, you know, we spend all of our marketing dollars on snow guns here (45:29) and, you know, to get those true fans where the product is a actual snow. And we’re like, well, (45:35) let’s, let’s make tons of snow, groom it to perfection if we can, and just make the ski (45:41) experience as good as it possibly can. And then Matt is going to tell his buddies about it. 

So, (45:46) uh, yeah, our marketing budget is zero. It goes all to a snowmaking basically. Yeah. 

(45:51) Well, I mean, and let’s talk about marketing on the, on the, the, the tagline. Is it still(45:57) first-class and friendly, first-class friendly skiing? Oh, you’re, you’re a few taglines back.(46:01) Am I a few taglines back? Yeah. 

We, we were first-class and friendly for years. Um, and (46:05) then we were Midwest best snow for years. And currently… I just thought those were multiple (46:09) signs. 

I didn’t know that things… Those are signs that we just haven’t updated yet. (46:13) And our, uh, our latest one is where skiers go. That’s what we’re operating under right now. 

(46:19) Okay. Great. Great. 

And, um, I love the where skiers go because, um, it’s very simple (46:27) and that’s who we are, right? Um, there are other ski resorts. We’re a ski area. And as a ski area, (46:34) you know, our, our number one thing is how is the skiing? And if you’re a person who likes to ski, (46:40) nubs knob is the place to be in the Midwest. 

And I feel confident saying that, um, because it’s (46:46) where we put all of our time and energy and where the folks that have been working here 20, (46:49) 30 years, our lead groomer, Scott Guppy Koontz, he’s been running a groomer, um, you know, (46:55) since he was a late teenager basically. And now he’s in his fifties and, um, he’s got to be one (47:00) of the best operators out there. I mean, it’s incredible what this person can do. 

Um, but you (47:05) know, as a skier, you notice those things, you notice the fact that, um, these guys are grooming (47:10) this thing to perfection. And when you ski, there’s not a ridgeline here or there. They take (47:16) time to overlap their passes. 

Um, you know, this is like going to a good coffee house versus going (47:22) to a bad one. And, um, if you’re a person like myself who enjoys coffee, there is a huge (47:27) difference. And that’s who we are. 

And so if you like to ski, come to nubs knob. It’s where (47:33) skiers go. If you like a white tablecloths and spas and hot tubs, you can go to a ski resort, (47:40) but this is a ski area. 

So, um, uh, I’m, I’m raising, uh, we’re on our second set of kids, (47:46) as you know, um, and raising all sorts of ski snobs, right. And I think I told you that we, (47:51) we call the little guys the nub snobs because anytime we take them to another ski place, (47:57) they complain about the snow. So, uh, so, so you’re making, you’re making more fans. 

(48:04) Um, uh, I want to make sure that we talk about the leadership piece because I think you’re just (48:08) such a phenomenal leader. I think that you have an air of patience to you, um, with an amazing (48:15) patience that’s coupled with a huge sense of urgency. Um, you know, if that makes sense, (48:21) right. 

Um, uh, very thoughtful in your leadership, um, during the COVID during, during COVID, (48:28) you said that you had some, um, some changes in the communication style and the emails that we (48:35) were putting out. So I want to talk about that. Um, I know I said it wasn’t going to keep harbor, (48:39) you know, uh, focusing on, uh, COVID, but so many of these learnings came out of it and you’re still (48:44) doing these things today. 

This, um, just how you changed email correspondence, um, and, and any other (48:54) leadership changes in yourself that occurred, you know, during, during that time? (48:59) Well, I think during that time changes were happening so fast and we’ve had, we had a few (49:03) missteps where I thought it was clear, uh, or I thought I had communicated clearly and there was (49:10) misunderstanding with the rental department or in the kitchen. Um, and so what I started doing (49:16) was every single Monday, um, putting out a crew memo and we continue that to this day, which is (49:23) the week ahead, we have this thing, this thing, this thing, this thing. And even though, um, the (49:29) head chef is really doesn’t care that, um, you know, a bunch of folks are coming, uh, to ski (49:36) school from, um, you know, uh, Calvary Baptist church or something. 

Uh, he has that information (49:42) now. And, and likewise, um, you know, the ski school director has the information that we’re (49:48) going to host, um, a big party for, um, you know, the, the, the local hospital back in the kitchen. (49:54) Um, and it, I think that that helps everybody feel like they understand what’s happening in (49:59) this growing organization. 

And the other thing too, is making sure that we’re on the same page. (50:05) I still wander around the ski area every day and try my best to talk to every single department head, (50:12) uh, multiple times a day. Um, but you, you, when you, when you’re growing, you’ve got, uh, different (50:20) messages and you’re, you know, somebody pulls you sideways and then all of a sudden you’re like, oh, (50:24) yeah, I told, I told chef Ralph this. 

And then chef Ralph says, well, you didn’t say anything (50:30) about, you know, this group that’s coming. Um, so I, I adopted this, um, you know, crew memo thing, (50:36) which seems like basic stuff and it is, but, um, when we started doing it, I was amazed at how, (50:44) um, more aligned we’ve become as a, as a ski, ski area. And I see the department heads taking that(50:50) memo every week and crossing things off on it that have already occurred. 

And we’re moving on (50:54) to the next thing. Um, and during COVID, you know, decisions had to be made. Like there was a lot of (50:59) you know, uh, like decision matrix, right? Like, um, Hey, if then, yeah, I’ve got an employee (51:05) who’s calling in, he doesn’t have COVID, but his sister does. 

And he was at her house last night. (51:11) Now what? And okay. If this, then this. 

And so we had to come up with flow charts and we had all (51:16) of these things that every single, um, every single department had had these because, you know, (51:20) we, again, we’ve got over 300 employees here. I can’t field every single call. So we actually had (51:24) flow charts posted, um, at the desk of every single department had so that they could start (51:30) making these decisions of, you know, without having to call Ben. 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

And, (51:35) and, you know, they’d still let me know, Hey, um, you know, this person’s out because they, (51:41) they’re not sure if they have anything right now or, you know, so it was, it was a tense time. (51:44) I don’t even really like talking about it. When I think about it, like, Oh man, my, (51:49) I feel my hair falling out of my head as I discuss it. 

(51:51) Well, that’s why I have my hat on today because the shine looks good. Yeah. It looks, I like this. 

(51:57) Um, but you know, culturally though, so, I mean, those things have, those things have,(52:01) um, latched on culturally, they’ve kind of cemented in that’s part of your communication(52:06) and leadership style. Now, um, the, did you ever see the poster? Uh, it says, uh, (52:11) the, the illusion of communication is that it actually occurred, you know, like when you say,(52:15) Hey, chef Ralph thought he heard, you thought you told them. And he said, I didn’t hear that. 

(52:20) Yeah. You know, um, it looks like you’re clearing, you’re clearing some of that stuff up.(52:26) Um, also on the culture. 

I mean, the culture here is very special. You’ve mentioned that, (52:31) you know, the ownership, you know, so we can kind of like to like to start at the, (52:35) the level of where ownership, their culture and their style of treating this place like (52:41) stewards as opposed to owners. Right. 

It’s almost like they have a responsibility to the land, (52:45) very Yellowstone ask, you know, you rip, uh, going to the train station. (52:52) Um, you know, it, it starts there. Right. 

And then it has this, this feeling of there’s things (52:58) that they’re doing to, to you and the management team. And then there’s things you’re doing to (53:03) the next level of leadership and to the, and to the people who are, who are out there doing all (53:07) the doing. And then that filters into the customers and then even down to the kids. 

(53:11) And we’ve, we’ve talked about how that culture is so special, how it, how it flows downhill. (53:17) You like that? Um, you know, to, to where this is a special place for, for, for kids to be able to, (53:24) to be, and to be kids. We talked about how, when we were younger, I mean, here you were (53:29) floating down the Mississippi on a, on two 10 cans and a, and a board basically. 

Right. And, (53:36) um, you know, and I was out in the middle of Lake St. Clair at 13 years old with a (53:40) outboard and a screwdriver that, uh, that both didn’t work. And, um, uh, you know, (53:46) can you talk about that, about how that starts at the top and then, and, and you get, you get (53:51) where I’m going. 

I do. As I’m listening to you talk about, um, you know, the, the top down, um, (53:58) you know, philosophy of this place. And, um, there’s a single word that comes to mind, which (54:04) is care. 

You have people that care. And at the deepest level, it’s like part of who they are, (54:12) are the owners. This place is like, it’s part of their story. 

Elise was born, you know, up here (54:18) and raised up here and raised on the slopes here. And, um, I love hearing her stories of when she (54:24) was a kid growing up here. Um, so she, you know, this, this place has been part of her family for, (54:29) for years. 

Um, and her dad, you know, ran, um, owned nubs before her. So, um, and her brothers, (54:37) her brother and her sister, um, her mom, they still all have that sort of level of care. And, (54:44) you know, when you see that in them, it just naturally rubs off on, on, um, on the rest of (54:49) the management team. 

Um, they make sure that people are treated well here too. Uh, you know, (54:53) and that, that comes down to compensation partially. Um, but they want to make sure (54:57) that there are on the high side of fair with all of their key positions. 

Um, and you know, (55:03) that helps with the retention. But the number one thing is that those of us that have worked here (55:08) for a number of years, um, we know that we’re driving to work at a place where the ownership (55:13) cares about it and we do too. And when you have, um, that sort of a situation, you can’t help but (55:20) be successful, I think. 

And, uh, when all of your mid-level managers feel that way about the place, (55:28) it goes down to the next level, into the next level, right down to the person, you know, (55:32) catching your chairlift, looking you in the eye and saying, how are you doing today? And. (55:37) Did they ever get sick of that? Cause boy, they ask it every single person, every single chair. (55:41) Every six seconds, that chair comes around and we have a morning meeting every single day. 

Um, uh, (55:47) usually I’ll do the morning meeting or sometimes our area manager will do the morning meeting, (55:50) riding Ryan Moore. And we actually have as a check that he or I need to make on the box as we (55:56) send folks out to their lift assignment is, did you tell people to, um, have a nice ride and smile? (56:04) Did you make eye contact, smile and say, have a nice ride. It’s important to us, you know, (56:10) and we say, not only is this a customer service issue, it’s actually a safety issue. 

You know, (56:15) if, if the lift operator is hands in pocket, head down, they’re not getting information, (56:20) you know, um, they’re not going to sit that a person’s not going to say, Hey, I, I see, um, (56:26) a kid who was crying on that last run, or, um, it seems like maybe somebody left a snowboard (56:32) in the middle of a run. But if, if you make eye contact and say, um, how are you doing today? (56:38) Hey, good. You know what I just saw on that last run. 

And now boom, this conversation has started. (56:43) Um, and so I think it actually keeps the slope safer. Um, but certainly it makes the skiers feel, (56:49) uh, welcome to ski here. 

And the, those relationships are incredible. I mean, (56:53) we’ve got lift operators who have been with us for 20 years, actually even more. Um, and (57:00) we’re coming on Christmas now, our skiers will actually, a lot of them will buy, (57:05) uh, gifts for these people. 

They get to know their kids, uh, and, you know, drop off a box (57:09) of chocolates for the holidays. My kids do it for Mr. Gary. They buy him a Christmas gift at the (57:14) top of the red lift, Mr. Casper. 

Um, and so, you know, these relationships, it’s really, it’s a, (57:20) it’s a cool thing and it’s a special place. Um, and you’ve got. In one word care from the top (57:26) level, all the way down to the bottom. 

And, um, that’s how I judge a ski area. You know, (57:30) when I go ski somewhere else, how are the lift operators doing? Yeah. Well, you know, we, we, (57:35) we talked about it being a special place too. 

And, and kind of that joking around about, you (57:40) know, what, what I was able to get away with as a kid growing up on the Lake and, you know, (57:44) what you were able to do, um, you know, the freedoms that we had to, to grow. And you would, (57:52) you said, and that’s what I love about nubs is that this is a place that you can’t do this at, (57:59) at every ski area, but you can kind of let the kids go. Yeah. 

I think I’m not sure. Not sure we (58:06) want to say that out loud. No, we can. 

I think we, I think it’s, it’s safe to do. I’ve got two boys (58:11) myself. Um, uh, my, my youngest is nine and you know, two years ago he got his wings here, which (58:18) was when he was a seven years old. 

Um, he was welcome to go ski on his own and, uh, people knew (58:24) but even if it wasn’t my child, there’s people here looking out for them. And, um, you know, (58:29) we paint all of our chair lifts have been painted for years, um, different colors. So, uh, kids can (58:35) just say, I’m going to just stay on the green lift or I’m going to go back to the orange lift. 

(58:40) Uh, or, you know, mom can say, we’re going to meet back at the, uh, black lift at two o’clock. (58:46) You get the black lift at two o’clock. I don’t care what you’re doing before that. 

Right. Um, (58:50) so, you know, it’s, it’s a really fun thing. We have a lot of customers actually come from like (58:55) the St. Louis area. 

And as an interesting demographic, because right there, you could (59:01) actually probably drive to the Rocky mountains almost as quickly as you could get to Northern (59:05) Michigan to nubs knob. Sure. Um, and when I didn’t have kids, I didn’t understand why you would do (59:11) that. 

You know, we’re below 500 feet of vertical and you could go up to the mountains and have(59:15) this huge, beautiful mountain experience. Um, but what I have learned is that the kid thing is so (59:23) cool. You know, that, yeah, I’m not going to send my nine-year-old, um, loose at Breckenridge, (59:29) you know, uh, but I sure am going to do it at nubs knob. 

And, and he feels like he has this (59:34) immense freedom that he wouldn’t feel at these other ski areas where he really needs to stay (59:39) with a mom or dad when at that age, at least for me, you know, maybe other people have different (59:44) levels of comfort as a parent, but, um, and then, you know, the parking’s easier, uh, getting a lift (59:52) ticket’s way more affordable. Um, the ski school is not only more affordable, but it’s world-class. (59:58) We just won, um, the best ski area, uh, in the central division, which is the Midwest. 

Um, and, (1:00:05) you know, I think that there’s a lot of things that we can do as a Midwest ski area that, um, (1:00:11) we can compete in certain areas against some of the bigger big guys. Yeah. Well, I mean the (1:00:16) culture, what did they say? Culture, culture eats something for breakfast. 

I can’t remember (1:00:20) what that is, but, um, uh, strategy, culture, culture, each strategy. Yeah. Um, but, uh, one (1:00:27) thing you said that I wanted to make sure I, I said out loud here was, um, when you let your kids (1:00:33) go here, it’s not odd. 

It’s culturally correct in the nubs knob cultural ecosystem. Yeah. Yeah. 

(1:00:42) That’s a big one for me, you know, raising, um, kids and, uh, um, maybe I, maybe this is a little (1:00:48) off color, but maybe in particular young men, um, you know, I’ve read quite a bit about this. I think (1:00:53) about it a lot too, with my background in the outdoor recreation and how that’s played such (1:00:58) a role in my own life. But, you know, kids, they need this freedom. 

You know, it’s important that (1:01:04) they test their own boundaries. Um, and if they’re not able to do that, um, there’s all kinds of (1:01:11) things that result negative, you know, negative things that can result. Um, and for me, you know, (1:01:17) I think that’s maybe the area of this business that I’m the most passionate about is watching (1:01:22) these young, um, uh, kids grow up on these slopes. 

It’s just super fun to see. Um, and I’ve been here (1:01:30) long enough where I’ve, I’ve seen, um, our state champion in slalom last year. His name is Gavin (1:01:36) Galbraith, a wonderful kid, but I, I saw him as an elementary kid skiing here, and now he’s a state (1:01:42) champion. 

Um, and his parents, you know, he’s one of four boys and his parents have let him loose on(1:01:48) these slopes as soon as he was able to. And, uh, it’s, it’s really cool to see that sort of a thing, (1:01:54) especially culturally right now in the moment we have where people are afraid to let their kids (1:01:59) ride their bikes to school. And, um, play is very prescribed and, um, you know, we’ve got travel (1:02:07) soccer and there’s not the backyard football, like when you and I were coming up, um, as much. 

And I (1:02:13) hope that the ski area can act as a remedy, uh, to some of that that’s going on right now. (1:02:20) And there was a, there’s a story I have from, um, last weekend I was here, uh, skiing and I can’t (1:02:26) remember what I was doing. I was waiting for, you know, waiting for one of my kids or something. 

(1:02:31) Anyway, I was, I was stopped at the top of the hill, must’ve been looking down or something. (1:02:35) And this 11, 12 year old says to me, you okay, do you need anything? And he wasn’t being a smart (1:02:42) and I said, I said, no, I’m good. I’m just waiting for my son. 

He’s like, oh, okay. Just want to (1:02:47) make sure you’re okay. And I was like, that was the coolest thing that’s ever came out of a 12 (1:02:52) year old’s mouth. 

Like the fact that he was conscientious about another person. And again, (1:02:57) it was just him and his buddy. Yeah. 

And it wasn’t, it wasn’t like their dad wasn’t there. (1:03:02) They weren’t showing off to anybody, you know, it was like kind of the definition of integrity, (1:03:05) right? What do you do when nobody’s looking? Yeah. You know, how do you behave when nobody’s (1:03:08) looking? And I’m like, man, that was, that was a really cool thing. 

I wish I could have found (1:03:12) that kid’s dad and said, yeah, nice job, man. You know, for me raising these, these two young (1:03:17) boys is you know, what you want them to develop is good judgment, right? Sure. And how do you (1:03:23) develop good judgment with no freedom? You can’t, you know, we, we actually have to let these kids (1:03:29) grow wings. 

And I think nubs knob can be a place for it when I don’t think I know, because I’ve (1:03:35) seen it, uh, is a place where these kids can, um, get their wings, go explore, make some mistakes(1:03:41) and, uh, and learn and grow and do better. Yeah. That’s awesome. 

Yeah. Um, you’re on the (1:03:50) national ski area association board, correct? Yeah. The NSA, which is, um, the, the, (1:03:57) the national organization that kind of organizes the ski areas, um, in North America. 

(1:04:04) Um, it’s, it’s our, it’s our trade association, but, um, they offer a lot of things. Um, and if (1:04:10) we ever need to organize national programs, um, legal, the legal landscape changes all the time (1:04:17) for ski areas. Um, they, they also help set standards for, uh, operations, uh, during COVID. 

(1:04:24) They were the ones who were really, um, advocating on our behalf of a small ski areas. We think you (1:04:31) can operate, here’s how you can do it. And we’re going to come up with signage. 

We’re going to come (1:04:35) up with plans. And they had the whole, um, what they call pandemic playbook. Okay. 

And that was (1:04:40) offered to ski areas, um, at no charge. Um, and with the ski industry was so cool because of the (1:04:48) NSA, I think during that time, because they, we have this national, uh, trade organization that (1:04:53) was able to talk to all of us. And, and yeah, I’m on that board, which has been a real, uh, (1:04:58) it’s been a real pleasure. 

I mean, it’s a pretty big deal. There’s only three or four (1:05:02) members in the Midwest, right? That, that are welcomed into that group, correct? Yeah. They, (1:05:07) they have to have membership, um, or representation on the board from every region. 

And the Midwest (1:05:12) has three or four seats. Um, and I, I’m part of a, on a six year term where I get to, uh, (1:05:18) have one of those seats and, you know, I’m sitting next to some of the, um, largest names in the ski (1:05:23) industry. Uh, you know, people way high up at Vail and, um, you know, I’ve become a friend of a guy (1:05:30) who runs Snowbird. 

Um, so this it’s, for me, I cannot believe that I have this experience and (1:05:37) that I’m lucky enough to do it. Um, I just had a phone call to my office a few years back. Um, (1:05:44) the executive director of the NSA says, Hey, we got a Midwest board seat open and, uh, we want(1:05:49) you to sit on it. 

I was shocked, but I just said, yeah, yes. Great. Yeah. 

Great. I mean, um, (1:05:59) it’s, it’s pretty cool that you’re able to put your influence, uh, into that as well. I mean, (1:06:04) have you seen, have you seen, um, obviously you’ve gotten a lot out of it. 

You know, you said that, (1:06:10) that, what do you feel like you’re pouring into that? Well, I think that my job on that board (1:06:15) is to stick up for small ski areas. Okay. And, um, you know, our needs are not the needs of (1:06:21) Vail. 

Um, it’s, there’s, there’s things that overlap. Um, but having a seat on that board, (1:06:27) I just want to make sure that, um, small ski areas are represented, that our needs are heard (1:06:32) and that, um, the NSA continues to provide a value to us. And they do, you know, that things like, (1:06:40) um, chairlift maintenance and mechanics is a real difficult thing. 

You know, it’s a, it’s a (1:06:45) very skilled and specific trade, uh, being a chairlift mechanic and they have provided tools (1:06:51) to help with training of mechanics, bring new people up. And for a small ski areas, you know, (1:06:56) that’s a, that’s a big help. Um, so that’s kind of where, uh, I like to put my energy is just (1:07:00) making sure that the small guys are, are heard in the room. 

Well, I always, I always think too, (1:07:05) I mean, that’s so funny how, what a behind the scenes item that is. And I know from knowing some (1:07:11) people in the ski industry, your commitment to safety is essentially off the charts. They, they, (1:07:18) the inspectors kind of laugh, like when they have to come here, they know how well you guys are (1:07:23) doing. 

Yeah. You know, I, I, that’s been something that we’ve inherited here. Um, uh, Jim Bartlett,(1:07:29) who was the general manager before myself for many years, um, he preached safety, um, and he (1:07:35) really put together a good program and incredible program of safety at the ski area, (1:07:40) high expectations. 

He’s now an inspector for, uh, one of our insurance companies. Um, and then (1:07:45) Marty Moore, our, uh, longstanding area manager who just retired this year. Um, he continued on(1:07:51) with the tradition of, um, you know, let’s not just do it as good as, uh, the rest let’s do it(1:07:58) better. 

And, you know, when I, the thing that keeps me up at night more than anything is the (1:08:04) safety of our, of our customers. And so if there’s anything we can do to make the experience a little (1:08:10) bit, uh, safer, we’re going to, we’re going to try to do it. You know, the, you talk about, (1:08:16) I talk about like the behind the scenes pieces and, um, and you spend so much, um, time and money (1:08:21) there. 

Even the snowmaking is kind of a behind the scenes item. When you think about other ways that (1:08:26) people are, are promoting their, uh, their, their ski areas. Um, I think of the little things and I (1:08:33) always, when, when I’m explaining to people kind of the, the essence of, of nubs knob and how the, (1:08:39) um, the little things right now, and I always have made this mention, I probably made this (1:08:43) mention to you as the wooden steps, you know, between the, the, the cement patio and the, (1:08:48) the wooden deck, you know, I always noticed that they’re never quite chewed up, right? You could (1:08:53) always leave them another year, right? They’d be fine another year. 

They’re getting kicked with (1:08:58) ski boots every year. So they’re getting chewed up, but, but they’re never at a place of complete (1:09:02) where, you know, you go to other ski resorts and you see, you know, that thing is all chunked out. (1:09:07) Yeah. 

Um, and you think of it, I always think, man, this is something so simple. It’s five boards.(1:09:13) Why doesn’t somebody replace those? You guys actually do. 

And those are those little things (1:09:17) that I think whether you’re into construction, like I am or not, or, you know, into that sort (1:09:23) of thing, um, even if you don’t notice it exactly, you feel it, right. And the people are, people are (1:09:30) picking it up. So is that, is that part of your DNA? Is that part of the, I mean, obviously it’s (1:09:36) part of the DNA of the organization here, but like, you know, I would bring it right back to that (1:09:42) same word of care. 

Basically you’ve got ownership here and the people that work here care about the (1:09:48) place. And so if we have something like, uh, step, uh, treads, you know, the boards are getting(1:09:55) wore out. There’s going to be somebody here that notices it right away and says something about it. 

(1:10:01) And then we put it on the list of stuff we’re going to do something about. Um, you know, sometimes (1:10:05) you have big things that you want to take care of, but you just don’t have the capital at that moment. (1:10:12) But, um, we, we are going to do that. 

And I think it’s, it’s as simple as that as you, you know, (1:10:19) you walk into a restaurant and sometimes you can tell, go to the bathroom is, is this a place that (1:10:24) people care about? And, um, I think that at nubs you’re going to find clean bathrooms and you’re (1:10:29) going to find well-groomed slopes. And essentially, uh, I believe that around every corner, you’re(1:10:35) going to find a person who cares about their job and they care about this place. And, um, that, (1:10:40) that really is a difference. 

Yeah. Well, I think you can feel it. I mean, (1:10:43) I think you’re doing an amazing job. 

Let’s wrap it up and talk, um, a little bit about just (1:10:47) personal for you. What are the next five years look like next five years for nubs and next five (1:10:53) years for the ski industry? You, you pick the order though. Wow. 

Um, looking into the crystal ball, (1:11:02) um, let’s, let’s talk about the industry in general. Um, skiing is back, you know, (1:11:08) it had a Renaissance, maybe seventies, eighties, nineties, and then it kind of plateaued. (1:11:13) Um, but what we’re seeing on a national level is we had record-breaking skier visits nationally. 

(1:11:20) Um, let’s see, not this year, but the year before had the weather worked out and had,(1:11:25) if every region now is having good weather, um, our skier visits will be record-breaking.(1:11:30) So skiing’s back and, uh, I think it’s here to stay. Um, so that’s really cool, right? Because (1:11:37) that gives, um, ski areas, it gives nubs knob, uh, latitude to do stuff. 

You know, (1:11:42) we, we all of a sudden, um, people are here buying the product, enjoying the place. (1:11:46) We’ve got a little bit more capital where we can do some stuff. And, um, you know, (1:11:50) what kind of stuff do we want to do? Uh, snowmaking. 

Yeah. It’s always, (1:11:55) it’s always been the answer. Not marketing? I thought you were going to say marketing for sure. 

(1:11:59) It’s always been the answer at nubs knob. Um, you know, this past year we, we built, uh, (1:12:04) five snow guns. Um, we’re going to continue to build more snow guns. 

We’re going to continue to (1:12:08) build that infrastructure, the pump system, uh, the piping, um, all of the stuff you don’t see. (1:12:12) So that skiing continues to be a thing that can happen with shorter and shorter weather windows. (1:12:17) We’re going to continue to invest in snowmaking. 

That’s the first thing. Um, but then we’re also (1:12:22) going to say, what would make the ski experience better? And that question gets asked and answered (1:12:29) every year. So I think over the next five years, um, I think we might see things like (1:12:34) chairlift replacement. 

Um, and I think you’re going to see, uh, an increased emphasis on, um, (1:12:41) making that skier experience even better. Things like, uh, more programming. Um, we see that a lot (1:12:47) of families are responding well to our ski academies for their kids. 

Um, and we’re going (1:12:52) to continue to build that, that whole ski experience. So that that’s the nubs knob, (1:12:57) uh, my personal life is completely intertwined with that mission. Um, so I think that kind of (1:13:03) answers that question. 

Um, but I’m also at this really special place in life right now where, (1:13:08) uh, my kids are home and in five years, that won’t be true of my oldest, uh, he’ll be just (1:13:14) leaving the nest. Um, so personally I’m lucky to work in the ski industry because it means, (1:13:19) uh, sailing season is open, uh, for me to enjoy. And, uh, we’ve got some pretty big goals as a(1:13:26) sail and, um, take our, our small cruising boat, um, all over the great lakes, you know, that’s (1:13:32) kind of my family’s thing. 

And so I personally, uh, aside from work, I think that that’s, that’s (1:13:38) my goal. Um, and then another thing I think that is going to be happening at nubs knob is we have (1:13:45) this incredible team here. Um, and can not imagine a ski area running with a better team than what(1:13:51) we have. 

Many of those team members are getting to the point where it’s retirement time, you know?(1:13:59) And so that’s a big thing here too, is bringing up the next generation because these guys, (1:14:05) if I were to not show up to work tomorrow, it won’t matter. Uh, they’ve got this. Um, (1:14:10) but we need to make sure that those folks have a person behind them. 

And in many cases that’s true. (1:14:16) And some it’s not totally apparent yet. And so that’s really my job is to make sure that those, (1:14:22) that the people questions answered. 

Yeah. That’s great. And I mean, and as I recall, I mean, that, (1:14:27) that was well thought out and well planned and a, and a nice transition. 

Um, when that happened in (1:14:34) your particular role. So there’s more DNA of that, you know, in the place that says, Hey, we, we (1:14:39) plan for the future too. So glad that’s on your radar. 

Um, we’ve had a great conversation. I think, (1:14:45) uh, I think you’re an amazing guy running an amazing business. So I appreciate you doing (1:14:50) this with me and, and, uh, hopefully we get in a bunch more people out here learning how to ski (1:14:55) with the, uh, the ski Odyssey 2025. 

Yes. Yeah. I, you know, I’m going to shameless plug because I (1:15:01) got a microphone in front of me. 

Uh, if you’re listening to this podcast, if you’re thinking (1:15:05) about getting into skiing, I would check out that ski Odyssey program. I also think that nubs knob (1:15:10) is a wonderful place to learn how to ski. We have a free beginner area here. 

So our purple lift and (1:15:16) our space worm are totally free. You don’t even need to have a lift ticket. You can show up and (1:15:20) go. 

Um, and some of the other cool stuff about nubs is, um, this award-winning ski school we’ve(1:15:26) got. And the thing that I think is so neat about skiing is ask yourself, what outdoor activity (1:15:35) can you do with multiple generations? So my dad’s still in a good health and he’ll come up here and (1:15:41) rides the chairlift with me and my nine-year-old and my 13-year-old son. And we ski for hours. 

(1:15:47) And I’m like, you know, there’s, there’s really nothing, almost nothing else in my life that I (1:15:52) can think of where that’s the case. And we’re all kind of at the same pace. And if, even if my (1:15:57) nine-year-old wants to bomb a Hill, what she does, uh, we ended up at the chairlift, you know, (1:16:02) relatively at the same time. 

And we were spending the day together outdoors and, uh, those memories (1:16:07) as a family, I think are, um, it’s invaluable. Yeah. Priceless. 

Yeah. Well, I’m glad you used (1:16:13) the microphone. Cause I know you spent all your money on snowmaking, so you don’t have any (1:16:17) marketing money left. 

So we need to give you these opportunities to be able to talk about it. Yeah. (1:16:21) Thank you. 

No, thanks for having me. And, um, and I, and I appreciate the opportunity to, (1:16:26) to talk to you. It’s been fun. 

Yeah. Great job. Yeah. 

Thanks. Thanks.