(0:00) Welcome to the BLTNT podcast. I’m your host, Matt Loria, serving up real stories of business, (0:05) life, technology, and transformations. You’ll hear from interesting people about big changes (0:09) from career shifts to life-altering decisions and the innovations that help make it all happen. 

(0:14) It’s about sharing those lightbulb moments, pivot points, challenges overcome, and the journeys (0:19) that inspire us to think differently. If you’re on the lookout for insights to propel you forward, (0:23) stories that resonate, or just a bit of inspiration on your next BLTNT move,(0:27) you’re in the right place. Let’s dig in. 

Okay, welcome to our most current episode (0:42) of the BLTNT podcast. I’m Matt Loria, and I am here with Mary Buck Zeiger, aka Mary Buck. (0:51) Hi, Matt. 

Thanks for having me. Thanks for being with me. Mary is the CEO of Lucerne (0:57) International, and I’ll let Mary kind of give a quick and dirty of what that all means. 

(1:04) So Lucerne International, we do cast, forged, and machined components assemblies for(1:12) automotive and commercial vehicle group. Awesome. Awesome. 

All stuff that I don’t know how to do. (1:17) So Mary and I met probably, what, eight or so years ago? I have no idea. It was a while back. 

(1:24) It was a long time ago, and always respected each other, always have a great time when we see each (1:28) other. I love her husband, Scott, very much too. So great people, and super excited to have you (1:36) with us. 

Thanks. Especially because you really meet the BLTNT, which is Business, Life, Technology,(1:43) and Transformations, and transformations are your jam. Whether I like it or not. 

Whether you like (1:49) it or not. Some self-imposed, some nature-imposed, I don’t know. But when we were talking the other (1:56) day, you started your story back at about third grade. 

And it doesn’t, don’t worry, it doesn’t (2:01) take, it doesn’t take 40 years to get there, because Mary’s only 40. Yeah. I’m holding at 40 (2:09) for the last decade. 

I like it. I like it. So start us off a little bit with your story, because (2:14) we, I think everybody would love to hear the stories that I’ve heard of, just kind of, you (2:20) know, how you grew up in that, you know, that business-oriented family, and, you know, some of (2:28) the zigs and zags. 

And then the goal that I’d really like to get to, too, is to talk about your (2:32) new factory, you know, when we kind of catch up to current day, because you’re doing some amazing (2:37) stuff today. Yeah, it is exciting. We do a lot of great things going on. 

So, you know, I’ve just, (2:42) I’ve been in this industry for as long as I can walk and talk. So I always like to say that most (2:47) kids got to go to summer camp, but I got to go to work camp. I know, my dad quit General Motors (2:53) when I was in the third grade. 

And he started his own company, he was, had a purchasing and (2:59) decided to go off and do the sales rep thing. So my parents really couldn’t afford child care. So (3:05) in the summer, I got woken up at six o’clock in the morning, got to go to the office, make the (3:10) coffee, and file papers and read my books, which was fun. 

Fast forward, I was driving a high road. (3:17) I’m, yeah. Let’s see, probably like in French toast in the morning. 

I have this vivid memory. (3:25) I don’t know, it’s just the most random things I remember. It was when Wendy’s had breakfast, (3:29) and my mom and I would always go through the drive-thru at Wendy’s, and she would get me (3:32) these sweet French toast sticks. 

That’s like one of my earliest memories of going to work. (3:37) That’s great. Yeah, I remember I made three bucks an hour when I was, I think, 14 at my dad’s boat (3:42) store. 

Yeah. For the first year, I had to work for free. Yeah. 

But then when I, when I proved (3:46) myself, I got up to three bucks. Yeah, when I, so as I got older, they paid me for sure. (3:52) So over three, over three bucks? I don’t know. 

I’m not so sure to be honest with you. (3:58) But you know, I was driving a high load before I could even drive a car. (4:01) My dad did some simple assembly work, some, just a whole bunch of random things over the years. 

(4:07) I ran a second shift after cheerleading practice, which was fun of my peers, and I did get paid (4:13) then. Okay. I know that we got paid in pizza, but I think we also got some dollar bills at the end (4:18) of it. 

Are you still friends with any of those people? Oh gosh. Or were you the, were you, (4:23) were you a tough boss back then? Yeah, no, I mean, I haven’t talked to them since high school, (4:27) so I’m sure they’re probably still on my Facebook somewhere that I could find them. (4:31) Yeah. 

And that’s it, right? So decided to go to college. I went to GMI Engineering School, (4:39) which I think is now Kettering University. Had a little bit of fun there. 

Decided to (4:45) transfer to, I don’t know, LCC because I was going to go to Michigan State. And then I ended up, (4:52) I ended up working. I just really enjoyed work. 

It took me 10 years to get my undergrad, which (4:57) was a whole lot of fun along the way. But I, when I moved to East Lansing, (5:03) I started my own marketing business. It was right when desktop publishing came out. 

(5:07) And I was a bartender for the bar, Rick’s in East Lansing. And I started my own desktop,(5:14) like publishing marketing firm where I would do all the advertisements for all the local bars. (5:19) And then I hired a bunch of students to go like hang flyers up. 

Of course, I was working as a (5:23) bartender. And then I was a nanny for the owner of the bar and his wife. (5:27) Rick? (5:28) Yeah. 

No, close though. Joe. So I just kind of, I really just worked, you know, the whole time, (5:35) which was great. 

I moved back here, oh gosh, in 1998 and went to school at Lawrence Tech. (5:43) Okay. (5:43) And came back to work actually for my dad. 

(5:45) Okay. (5:45) In 98. (5:46) Okay. 

(5:47) So finally graduated, I think like in 2008, it was eight years. So maybe not 10, eight years later. (5:52) It took me five. 

But like I told you, I would have easily taken 10 if my friend, (5:58) Tricia, didn’t carry me through. (6:00) Didn’t stab you a little and get you going. (6:02) Yeah. 

No, no, no. Literally carry me. It wasn’t just prodding. 

She just put it on a platter for (6:08) me. (6:09) So yeah. So I mean, that’s kind of, you know, where I came back to work in 98 and (6:16) worked through every facet of the job. 

(6:19) What was the company doing around that time? (6:20) So it was all domestic supply chain management. (6:23) Okay. (6:23) So we’d have programs where, you know, contract manufacturing. 

A lot of what we do now, (6:27) but it would be all domestic. So I remember we used to make all the (6:32) Targa frames. So the roof frames for the Corvettes. 

(6:36) Mm. Okay. (6:36) And they were magnesium cast. 

So we would have them cast by a supplier in Chicago. (6:43) We had to buy these little, I don’t know, some little stamped assembly nuts. (6:49) And then we would get them. 

So we’d cast them in Chicago. We’d get them e-coded locally. (6:55) And then we’d bring them back in house and we’d do the assembly. 

And then of course, (6:58) package them and ship them just in time to our customers. So a lot of programs like that, (7:01) but all domestic. (7:02) Got it. 

(7:04) Then in 2003, my dad had another company with a partner. It was a minority certified(7:09) company. And I was watching a lot of our work go offshore at that time. 

And I said, Hey, (7:13) dad, I’ve got some ideas. I think it would be great if we went offshore. And my dad said, (7:19) yeah, kid, go ahead. 

Give it a shot. Within a couple of years, my company was twice the size (7:23) of his, which was fun. And my dad retired in 2008. 

So I took over Lucerne. I bought him out (7:32) and had my other company, Shore Solutions. Combined the two, rebranded, I think in 2014, (7:38) bought out the partner of the other company eventually. 

And as they say, (7:43) and that’s where we are today. That’s what brings us here. (7:47) Wild. 

So let’s mix in some of the personal life here. Met Scotty in 02-ish time frame? (7:56) Great question. Something like that. 

Yeah. Yeah. It sounds about right. 

(8:00) I talked to him to verify that. Somewhere in that area. (8:03) You know what? He knows how long we’ve been married. 

He knows when our anniversary is. (8:07) Usually I defer to him. I know. 

It sounds right. Very thoughtful. Yeah. 

It sounds right. (8:11) Very thoughtful. So, and how did you meet? How’d you meet your husband? (8:16) It’s a really romantic story. 

We, we met at a bar in Detroit. We just, you know what? We had some (8:22) mutual friends in our DSS. He had just retired. 

He was a professional boxer, as you know. (8:28) And he had just retired and I was- What was his boxing name? (8:31) Scotty Buck. Scotty Buck? (8:33) Yeah. 

Okay. But he had something on his- (8:35) I don’t know. I think like they used to call him, because he’s Jewish, right? Coming out of (8:38) Farmington Hills, this little kid from the suburbs. 

They were like calling him the big (8:42) Obama or a couple other things. No, there’s something else. I can’t remember what it is. 

(8:45) I don’t know. Well, we’ll have to ask him. (8:47) Yeah, we’ll have to ask him. 

Who comes and joins us. (8:49) So yeah. So we had some mutual friends. 

I was actually just, there’s the, the, (8:53) I have an entrepreneurial bug. I can’t help myself. So when I moved back and was working here, (8:57) I was just, I still loved health and fitness because I’ve always been in, like I was in (9:02) martial arts. 

I was an amateur boxer. I’ve just always loved that space. So I bought a kickboxing (9:07) gym. 

Oh, cool. Yeah. (9:08) Where was that? (9:09) It was in West Bloomfield. 

(9:10) Okay. (9:11) Inside Powerhouse Gym. (9:12) Oh, okay. 

(9:13) But he, he was of course working for one of my competitors. So we met at a bar and within, (9:19) I think like eight to 10 weeks, he was working for me. It didn’t take long. 

(9:27) And he, he called your relationship, right? I mean, he’s the one who said, (9:31) this is going to happen. (9:33) He’s psychotic. Yeah. 

I think I shared with you, it was, oh gosh, we were dating for maybe, (9:42) I don’t know, not very long. (9:44) Three or four days. (9:45) Dating. 

Okay. Maybe a little longer than that. It was a few months and dating I use loosely (9:50) because I was definitely still seeing other people. 

And he showed up one day to dinner (9:53) and showed me a tattoo he had gotten. And it was my name on his arm. And I was like, (9:58) I sure hope your mom’s name is Mary because you’re crazy. 

But he, he said, when you know, (10:04) you know. And I guess he was right because here we are, you know, 20 plus years later and three kids. (10:10) And that’s amazing. 

Yeah. That’s amazing. Yeah. 

It’s good stuff. (10:14) So you do kind of like, the waves carry you a little bit too. So for as determined as you are, (10:20) the waves kind of, you know, you’re along for the ride in some interesting ways, I feel like. 

(10:25) I don’t fight it, right? I kind of go with it. I go with what life throws my way. (10:30) That’s great. 

(10:31) No sense in fighting it. (10:35) So you also, you were telling me, okay, so you ended up buying out your dad. (10:42) Your company was a little bit bigger than his, twice the size of his at the time. 

(10:47) But you kind of had some wild rides in the automotive world of the 08 and then personal(10:53) stuff. I mean, it was just kind of a crazy time for you. So it’s not been all just like. 

(10:59) Oh, it’s all sunshine and rainbows, Matt. I mean, come on, it’s automotive, sunshine and rainbows. (11:04) No, it, listen, any industry is a struggle. 

And I mean, you’re a business owner. (11:10) Any business is a struggle. If anybody says it’s easy, they’re absolutely right. 

(11:14) That’s why we’re only on the second floor. I didn’t want to be up any higher for all the(11:18) opportunities to jump. (11:19) You just break a leg, that’s all. 

I know, just maim yourself a little. No, (11:23) yeah, we went through some hard times. I mean, 2008 when the economic downturn in the automotive (11:29) industry was getting bailed out, it was pure craziness. 

My dad, unfortunately, my mom had (11:34) just passed away and my dad was like, you know, I’m done. He was just, he wanted to retire and (11:38) he was out. Great time to take over the business. 

I was pregnant with my second child. Yeah, (11:45) it was my second child. And you know, the automotive industry basically shut down for (11:51) three, four months, which was insane. 

So I made the tough decision to just stop taking a salary, (11:59) shut the doors. And we unfortunately went through personal bankruptcy to save my business. (12:06) Thank God for Scott and his, you know, he was still working as a personal trainer. 

We, (12:11) we let our house go. We moved in with my dad. So I’d already had a baby. 

And then my daughter, (12:18) actually we moved in after my daughter was born. So my daughter is like, I don’t know, a few months (12:23) old and we move in with, with my father. And I’m sure he loved that. 

God bless him. (12:29) Wow. He probably did love it. 

(12:30) It was, well, I’m sure he didn’t love being woken up by a baby at, you know, all hours of the night, (12:36) but it was some crazy times. Yeah. That was, that was a tough batch in 2008. 

We got through it, (12:41) came out stronger than ever. And then went through a few more rides here and there. (12:46) One thing you had mentioned to me during that time was that you had a number of employees kind of (12:52) hang, hang with you. 

Yeah, a few. Absolutely. In 2008, I mean, we tried to, we didn’t let anybody (12:59) go. 

You know, I tried to keep people on bare minimum salaries or, you know, help out where I (13:05) could. A few people collected unemployment, but everybody came back after the fact. So it was (13:09) good. 

We were much smaller then, a little more agile, I would say. So we were able to do that. (13:17) That’s one of the things that gets scarier as you get bigger is, you know, so much of a payroll,(13:23) so much of responsibilities in the buildings and, you know, you name it. 

(13:27) More overhead, more fixed expenses, things like that. Yeah, definitely. (13:32) It’s hard to be scrappy. 

Exactly. (13:34) And around that time, that’s when you kind of joined, you joined a peer-to-peer group. I know (13:38) we know each other from there. 

Could it have been that we’ve known each other since 2010? (13:44) That’s probably, sounds about right. Wow. Wow. 

That’s crazy. That’s nuts. Yeah. 

So yeah, Vistage. (13:50) Joined Vistage. That was a great experience. 

So Richard Best, he’s the, did you know Richard? (13:57) Okay. He’s the best. He’s the best. 

So he was the CEO of GKN Driveline here and he had just retired (14:07) and joined Vistage. And you couldn’t ask for a better mentor, a better chair, especially for me. (14:15) Right. 

I mean, being an automotive and he understood the language, he got the issues (14:19) that we were dealing with. So I honestly, you know, I’ve been really fortunate to have great (14:25) role models in my life, but he was probably one of the mentors in my life that made the (14:30) biggest impact on me and on my business and the way that I looked at things. I feel like Vistage(14:37) opens up your mind to how you, you have that peer network and they say it’s lonely at the top, (14:44) right? And it really is because you don’t have anybody else that you can vent to. 

You can’t do (14:48) it to your employees. You can’t, you know, you can’t really go to your family. They don’t understand. 

(14:53) So being able to share issues and common issues, it doesn’t matter what industry you’re in when (14:57) you’re running a business, you share a lot of the same issues. Sure. Sure. 

But having that, (15:01) having that mentor too, though, that, oh my gosh, that one knowing the business. And yeah, (15:06) I mean, that’s, uh, he was all, I mean, he took on like almost like a fatherly role to me too. (15:10) It was really, you know, it was great because he just, you could just tell he was passionate (15:14) about it and he cared and he would hold me accountable. 

Is he still with us? I’m not (15:19) sure. I haven’t talked to him in probably two or three years. I’ve heard his name floating around. 

(15:24) I’m going to need to reach out and find out. Both of us should do that. But, um, so then you were (15:29) starting to split some responsibilities with, with Scott, uh, or Scott, actually not just split (15:33) responsibility. 

Scott took over in 2011. Uh, yeah, my son was a year old. So, um, yeah, it was a (15:43) crazy, it was crazy times. 

We’ve, we’ve definitely been up and down. So, um, he was working full (15:50) time. He had his own business, personal training. 

And of course I was working full time and we, (15:57) two kids, three now at this point, we just had Cody, our third child. (16:02) And, um, we had two nannies. So one would come over in the morning and take them to daycare and (16:07) school. 

And then another would come over in the afternoon and she would do laundry, clean the (16:13) house. Then she’d go pick up the kids and bring them home. And then of course Scott and I would, (16:17) would get home that night, you know, at those in the evening. 

And, um, it was really unfortunate. (16:23) We had this wonderful, beautiful soul who was with us for well over, I think like a year, (16:30) cause she was with us from Cody, from the time Cody was born. And she was only 26 years old, (16:35) but unfortunately she, um, she had a pulmonary embolism and passed away. 

And it was heart (16:41) wrenching. It was really awful because unfortunately she was in our home that afternoon. My husband (16:48) came home, found her, you know, called the police, whatever. 

It was just, it was this horrible (16:53) thing that our family went through. Um, we still miss her dearly to this day. Like I said, she was (16:58) just this beautiful, bright soul. 

But it also made my husband realize, he just stepped back and he (17:03) said, you know what, why are we even doing this? Why are other people raising our children? (17:09) Because basically what he was making was just going to pay for a nanny. So he stepped up and (17:14) that’s it. I’m done. 

I’m going to stay home and I’m going to do this. (17:18) Wow. Do you know what he was getting into? (17:21) Oh, hell no. 

Hell no. I don’t think either of us knew what we were getting in. Nobody does. 

(17:27) I mean, you’ve got kids. (17:29) When my wife leaves for a day, I start to melt down.(17:34) Right. 

I remember when the kids were little, um, we went up north for a weekend and I, (17:39) you know, from early on, I travel a lot for business. Like prior to COVID, I probably traveled (17:45) 75% of the time. So I was not there when my kids were little, not very much. 

It was so bad that my (17:51) kids would run up to me and, you know, they’d want something and they’d go, daddy, daddy. And I mean, (17:56) mommy, mommy, you know, and it used to be the opposite. Like kids would run up and go, mommy, (17:59) I mean, daddy. 

It was crazy. But I remember we were up north one weekend and we just went away (18:04) for the weekend and he went to the grocery store, which was a half hour away and I’m like getting(18:08) the kids. And by the time he got home, like an hour later, I’m in tears. 

And I’m like, I don’t (18:12) know how you do this every day. It’s hard when the kids are little. Did they have you tied to a (18:18) chair? Oh my God, no. 

But I was like in a corner shaking. Nadine was out of town the other, the (18:25) other day. And, and, uh, one of our little guys wakes, he was having some stomach problems and (18:29) I was home sick and she, uh, he came to where it came to in my bedroom and he’s like, I’m going to,(18:35) I’m going to be sick again. 

And he threw up blood. I had no idea what to do. So I had to (18:40) call the pediatrician and, uh, you know, I’m trying to decide, do I call my wife? Do I not call my (18:45) wife? You know? And, uh, I’m like, oh my gosh, I cannot wait until she gets home. 

(18:52) Way above my pay grade. Nobody gives you a parenting book, right? Nobody can prepare (18:58) you for what being a parent is like. The stay at home parent has my, oh gosh, uh, immense, um, (19:05) respect. 

He’s got a much harder job than I do. I would agree. My, my one buddy used to say, (19:11) I go to work to rest, you know, it’s a lot easier at work. 

So, um, so in, um, just kind of walking (19:24) through the timeline here a little bit, um, you, was it Richard that encouraged you or somebody (19:30) encouraged you to get the, um, women’s certification for the business or did you do it on (19:36) your own? Did you, you know, I think, uh, I’m not sure who encouraged us, but we did decide to go (19:43) after that WB certification. There’s no reason not to, um, which is a nice certification to have (19:49) an automotive at, I would say that it opens up doors maybe. And you’re right. 

They’re not just (19:55) handing you a contract because you have it. No, no, no. I mean, you know, if I’m next to my (20:00) competitor and all things are equal apples to apples, then maybe I’ll get the contract, but it’s (20:06) not a guarantee. 

So, but it’s helpful to, to open up doors, especially in automotive, there’s, um, (20:13) diversity divisions that will kind of be your internal advocate that will bring you in and say, (20:17) do you know them? And they try to get business for you. So it’s almost like having teams of (20:23) salespeople out there for you. Yeah. 

I mean, obviously, I mean, for anybody who’s sold into (20:27) large enterprise, I mean, it’s, that’s a whole life course in itself is knowing who the people (20:33) are, knowing how things operate. I mean, it’s, and then when changes occur, I mean, it’s just, (20:39) it’s wild. And it’s, and if when, like for me, I left the world of, of enterprise IT and, you know, (20:47) so much of that knowledge just goes, it’s just poof. 

It doesn’t do me any good right now, right? (20:52) To know the, the corporate structure at Stellantis, you know, but, but anyway, when did you, (21:02) um, uh, when did you move to China? There was a time that actually, well, actually, (21:09) I remember now from, uh, one of the things we talked about that was like about the craziest (21:15) time as well. Cause you had every 10 years. It’s like, hopefully I’m not going to be anywhere near (21:23) you in three years. 

I’m going to move to a deserted Island. Um, yeah, 2018 was rough. (21:28) My, unfortunately my father just passed away. 

Um, we historically, you know, I took my business (21:36) offshore. So we do a lot of, um, offshore manufacturing through our partnerships and (21:42) a big chunk of my business then. And still now in 2018 was in China. 

And if you remember (21:49) the Trump tariffs took effect in 2018. So, um, my dad passed away, right? Actually it was awful. (21:57) I testified at the, um, uh, trade somewhere at one of the trade reps and I testified, (22:06) I did an interview with the wall street journal. 

I got on the airplane. It was like this crazy, (22:12) emotional day. I landed and my husband called me when I landed in Detroit and said, your dad (22:17) just died. 

So it was insane. It was just one of these, you know, whirlwind, I don’t know that (22:23) 2018 was a whirlwind. So my father passed away. 

We were still fighting the tariffs. I was actually (22:29) victorious for the first few rounds of the tariffs and I was able to get our HTS codes removed. (22:35) So let’s, let’s just, let’s back up and kind of explain that in a little bit more detail. 

Essentially (22:40) the parts that you were selling and manufacturing overseas were being hit where they were put into (22:46) a class of goods that was being hit with some pretty enormous tariffs. Historically it’s two (22:52) and a half percent on goods that you bring in for these kind of parts. There are body structural (22:57) systems, hinge systems, and there was an additional 25% tariffs left on top. 

So if you know anything (23:05) about automotive, you can’t just walk into your customer and go, I need 25% more. Right. And my (23:10) guess is that the margins wouldn’t, wouldn’t just cover that. 

Did you see my Lamborghini? I did. (23:14) And my matching Ferrari. How’d you drive two cars? I know. 

I mean the matchbox ones that I brought in (23:21) because that’s all I could afford. No, there’s no margins. I mean, automotive is already pretty (23:26) paper thin. 

Yeah. So that’s well over and above any margins we would have. So then you, you, (23:32) how did you get on that, that, that track to, to kind of go fight it? I mean, where do you even get(23:38) started with that? How did that all work out? You know, I’m pretty fortunate. 

I’ve got a great (23:42) network in Detroit. First call was to, I sit on a board from Mish Auto. So I called up Glenn (23:50) Stevens and said, who’s the head of Mish Auto and said, Hey, I need some help. 

And immediately we (23:55) kind of put this war room together in our conference room, had my whole executive team in, (24:00) and within hours after the tariffs were announced, we had this path of who to talk to where to go. (24:08) I think it was pivotal point was that we hired a PR agency, Trescott Rossman and Ron Fournier. He (24:16) was the, he had just retired from Cranes. 

He was the editor for Cranes. And I was his first client, (24:24) which was awesome. And he has got a ton of experience in DC. 

So he just had this amazing (24:29) background. So we really went on this kind of tirade in the public eye to win the tariffs, (24:36) if you will, create our story and get the word out about, Hey, this isn’t going to work. (24:44) Was it just kind of ill planned, the whole tariff piece where it was like, Hey, (24:48) we’re not going to, we’re not realizing that it’s going to impact US based businesses. 

Is that? (24:54) I mean, the whole tariff thing is still ill planned. If you ask me. There’s, I agree that (25:01) China is absolutely eating our lunch. 

We have to do something. We have to be more competitive. (25:07) Did those tariffs maybe spark something? Possibly. 

(25:10) But I see firsthand that it sparks more, okay, let’s get out of China and go to Thailand. Let’s (25:16) go to Vietnam. Now COVID really put that kink in the supply chains and said, Whoa, look at all this (25:23) risk and supply chain. 

I think that’s what drove more of the localization than tariffs. What (25:29) people don’t understand about tariffs and still don’t understand today is when you’ve got one of (25:36) our leaders sitting in front of a TV saying, tariffs are the best thing ever. We’ve collected (25:42) billions of dollars from Chinese companies. 

I’m sorry, but who have you collected those from? (25:48) Because I know the tariffs I pay came out of my company who my customer had to pay and their (25:55) customer had to pay and their customer had to pay. At the end of the day, it’s the US consumer that (26:01) pays those. Chinese companies aren’t going to pay more to get their goods here. 

They’re going to (26:07) charge you more for their goods. It could work if you had adequate replacement goods made here. (26:13) Yes. 

But if that’s not the case, then it just goes straight through. (26:17) Right. Rebuilding the North American supply chain, 100% important. 

Have we shipped it all (26:26) offshore over the last 30 years? Yes. Right. Everybody has. 

Rebuilding the supply chain (26:31) is important. Is tariffs the answer for it? I don’t think so. Because at the end of the day, (26:36) it is just going to drive up inflation more. 

It’s going to drive up the cost of all of the consumer (26:41) goods. That’s quite frankly what it did in 2018. It’s going to continue to do so today. 

(26:48) Interesting to hear that from the perspective of somebody who’s actually… (26:52) I’m building a plant here. Granted, we’re building a plant here. We’re rebuilding the (26:59) North American supply chain. 

But if those tariffs were to go away, it would definitely make us (27:04) uncompetitive. I’m not completely against tariffs. It’s just that continuing to rely on that (27:12) as a strategy will make us weaker. 

I think your point is too is that (27:18) it might be part of the puzzle, but it’s not the panacea. It’s not the cure-all. (27:23) Exactly. 

We have to just be aware of that. The average cost of a car right now, (27:29) it’s insane. I just sat through, I don’t know, somebody’s presentation. 

(27:32) What’s the number? Pre-COVID, it was on this line and this is the line it’s on now, (27:40) which is a huge difference. The average cost of a vehicle is $45,000. (27:45) Wow. 

(27:46) I paid $50,000 for my first house. My first house I bought for 50 grand and a car is $45,000. (27:54) Wild. 

(27:54) It’s complete insanity. (27:56) Wild. (27:56) And you can’t tell me that tariffs aren’t a big part of that. 

(27:59) Yeah, it has to play in. Yep. (28:02) I mean, COVID and supply chains and all the other stuff also has a big factor. 

It’d be (28:06) interesting to see where we’d be had it not been for COVID. (28:09) Yeah, right. If we had the crystal ball here, we’d say we don’t have that. 

(28:12) Yeah. (28:14) In 2018, not only did- (28:16) Oh, I wanted to skip that over. (28:17) No. 

(28:17) It was a rough year. (28:18) We got to talk about it a little bit about this because this is the piece where I think (28:23) people can really appreciate your commitment and your guts and Scott and your whole family’s (28:32) commitment as well. I mean, I know the kids were a little bit younger, so they didn’t have too (28:36) much choice, but you moved the family to China-(28:40) I did. 

(28:41) In 2018. (28:42) Yeah, so my dad passed away. I was fighting tariffs, then moved my kids to China. 

(28:45) I think I misunderstood you. (28:47) Yeah, China. (28:48) I thought maybe Chinatown? No? China, okay. 

(28:52) That country across the world. (28:55) Where the hell would you want to do that? (28:57) You know what? My business is growing. We were just launching some major programs and(29:04) I saw an opportunity and a path forward and I said, you know what? I need to spend time(29:08) building the business on this side of the ocean. 

I had just hired an incredible COO (29:12) who is still with me today. So I said, why not? Let’s give my kids this experience. (29:19) I’ve got quite a few expat friends. 

One girlfriend in particular, (29:23) she convinced me. We were out to dinner one night in Shanghai and she convinced me. (29:27) And I called home that night, might have had a couple of drinks, but I called home that night (29:31) and I told Scott, I’m like, we’re moving to China. 

And he said, all right, let’s do it. (29:35) I mean, that’s really how the conversation went. (29:37) That’s so great. 

(29:37) So it was an amazing experience though. My kids really, it’s such a safe environment there. (29:49) That’s an interesting word. 

I wouldn’t have expected that word. (29:51) I mean, communism works in that case. Other cases not so much, right? (29:57) We won’t use that as the major clip that comes out of this, is that communism works? (30:00) Absolutely not. 

But when it comes to safety, I mean, I’ve never felt (30:05) better about the safety of my children. (30:09) So my son, I think was in second grade. My daughter was in third and my oldest was in (30:15) eighth grade or third, fourth and eighth, something like that. 

I don’t know, Scott, (30:18) probably no ask him. But we lived like maybe three or four blocks from school. (30:26) They went to Shanghai American School. 

They would walk out of the house. They would walk to school. (30:30) My daughter had a little scooter she’d ride. 

My daughter would ride her bike. My eight-year-old, (30:36) nine-year-old daughter would ride her bike to school. And then after school, there was like (30:40) this shopping complex. 

So there was food and whatever. There was this animal rescue center. (30:48) And I want to say Shane was eight, nine. 

I think she was probably nine years old. She was, (30:54) she was nine. She would go after school on her own, this little nine-year-old, (30:59) and go volunteer at this animal rescue shelter and walk dogs. 

But the thing is, (31:03) the women there couldn’t even speak English. So she had her little phone and she would translate (31:07) on her phone and she’d talk to the women and they’d tell her what to do at nine years old. (31:12) Wow. 

(31:12) I mean, talk about like this level of just crazy independence and learning. (31:17) And an experience you just couldn’t buy that anywhere. (31:20) And you ask my kids now and they would, if China were the same as it was then, which it’s not, (31:25) post-COVID it’s a different story, but they would move back there in a heartbeat. 

And Scott too. (31:30) Of course, Scott had a driver. He had an auntie, which means auntie in Chinese. 

And she came over (31:37) every day and cleaned the house. She cooked for the kids. She did a lot. 

Scott didn’t have a job (31:41) in China. He didn’t drive anywhere. He didn’t have to do anything. 

So he was really loving that (31:47) expat life there. And they really enjoyed it. (31:50) So let’s take a little detour here. 

The difference between China 2018 and the China today, (31:57) what would you, what are some of the highlights that you’d kind of point out to somebody who (32:02) lived there from the perspective of somebody who lived there? Right. I mean, all we are is (32:07) consumers of the news. I would know nothing about it. 

(32:10) I mean, the expat community, especially in Shanghai, the expat community there was really (32:14) strong. There was a lot of expats in China and all different, you know, all different industries. (32:21) So quite a few in Onomoto, but all over the place, a lot of expats. 

And it was a very (32:27) international city. Not to say it’s not still today, but there was Western restaurants. (32:34) What are they called? Foreigner streets. 

And, you know, there was certain disbursements of (32:42) all these little foreigner areas with all these Western restaurants, which was great. (32:48) It was just this really cool vibe. Post-COVID, I mean, you know what China went through with (32:54) the lockdowns. 

You’ve seen it, I’m sure, all over the news. They were pretty strict. That’s (32:59) why when I say communism works until it doesn’t, it doesn’t. 

Right. I mean, they had people (33:04) on lockdown. You didn’t have a choice. 

If they caught you on camera walking by somebody who was (33:09) later diagnosed with COVID, then you’d be locked down wherever you were in a hotel room for two (33:16) weeks, if that’s what it was. They’d lock down your whole family. I mean, it was insane. 

So (33:20) knowing firsthand. And it didn’t help either what they did, did it? I mean, I don’t know. Probably (33:26) not. 

Who knows? But taking away people’s freedoms at that level was crazy. So fast forward, a lot of(33:35) expat population moved out. COVID has obviously changed. 

Because you would have been under the (33:39) same rules then too. Oh yeah, thank God we were out. COVID has obviously changed how everybody (33:45) works. 

So I just don’t know if the expat population is still going to grow to as big as it (33:52) once was. But a lot of the restaurants that I used to love and frequent, they’re closed down now. (33:58) I remember right when the restrictions got lifted, I went just a couple months after (34:03) and walking down the street in Shanghai was so international. 

You’d see everybody from every (34:08) nationality. And after COVID, I remember walking down the street and I was like, (34:12) why stick out like a sore thumb? Because people were staring at me because they hadn’t seen (34:16) foreigners in so long. Wow. 

This episode of the BLTNT podcast is sponsored by Auxium, (34:24) business IT and cybersecurity designed to outsmart chaos. Empowered by Juniper Networks, automate your(34:30) network with Juniper Networks and the Mist AI platform, the world’s first AI driven wired and (34:34) wireless network. Now let’s get back on. 

We’ll get back on the timeline trail here. We’ll get (34:41) out of 18 here real soon. I promise. 

I swear. It was a rough year for us. But I think everybody (34:44) needs to hear this because, you know, I think people, you know, people see you in the outside (34:49) world and they just think, oh, successful person, successful person. 

And I think you’d have to give (34:54) the color behind it that says, no, highly earned. I earned every bit of this. So while you were (35:02) there, you had a, you had some issues with, with, with business. 

With business. Yeah. One of my, (35:08) and I don’t know what you can say, what you can say about that. 

I mean, I can say anything I want, (35:12) but I prefer not to dredge things up. We’ll take the high road. Let’s take the high road. 

Say it as (35:17) nicely as you can. Well, so I had just moved my family to China and right as I moved my family (35:22) there, we were having some issues with one of our largest customers. They were behaving just (35:28) poorly, not paying us on time, playing some games. 

And we were less than a year into major launches (35:35) worth, I don’t know, the better part of about $45 million. I literally moved my family to China (35:45) in three days after we moved there. I was like, I gotta go. 

I just picked up and left my poor family (35:51) who none of them have ever even been to China. I don’t think my kids had ever been out of the (35:56) country. They’re starting a new school. 

They can’t speak the language. I was like, okay, bye. I’ll be (36:01) back. 

Which, you know, and I left and had to, I came back, I think like a week and a half later (36:06) in the, we ended up only living there for six months because I had to bring my family back (36:12) kind of in a firestorm, which I’ll get to. But in the six months that they lived there, I only saw(36:17) my family for 18 days. Wow. 

Not in a row. It was random. Total. 

I pop in, right? I’d be like, hi, I’m (36:27) back for two days. Are some of those half days counted as that? Yeah. And even when I was there, I wasn’t (36:32) there. 

I was at my office in Shanghai. I was working. So that was a rough patch. 

I mean, my (36:37) poor husband literally just, it was like that picture of Atlas with the world on his shoulders, (36:42) trying to keep the family happy and together and navigate this new country. (36:47) So yeah, so we had a customer start behaving very poorly. We went through some legal battles. 

(36:55) Less than a year, again, why I had to move my family back. It was November 9th, 2018. I’ll never (37:01) forget the day I got an email. 

It was a Friday at 5.30 PM from a gentleman who was the head of (37:11) purchasing, just canceling all of our contracts. Less than a year into launch. Again, these are (37:17) life of program contracts that are supposed to last seven years or more. 

And for those who don’t (37:21) understand, in automotive, you’re putting all the costs in upfront and maybe making money later down (37:28) the road. You start to recover usually in year two. So we had a lot of upfront loaded costs. 

I mean, (37:35) just moving my family to China, all of that, right? There’s just a lot of moving pieces (37:40) because we had life of program contracts. And they didn’t cut our contracts for(37:48) not supplying, lack of quality, whatever. Everything, what we were doing was okay. 

(37:53) We were doing the right stuff. (37:54) Yeah. Unbeknownst to us, they were going through some financial issues and their decision was just (37:59) to try to go in and screw their suppliers, for lack of better words. 

So not only did they cut (38:03) my contracts, they said, oh, the accounts payable that we have for you, we’re not paying that either. (38:10) We’re not paying those. And all that inventory that you have, everything six weeks on the water (38:14) and all four weeks on the floor, take it and shove it because we’re not going to take that. 

(38:19) So that was fun. So millions and millions and millions of dollars. And it’s crazy because(38:24) in that situation, I’d never been through that. 

What do you do? I can’t call the police and be (38:31) like, somebody just robbed me. You owe me millions. What do you do? So thankfully, I have an amazing (38:40) legal team and I absolutely have to give a shout out to Warner Norcross Judd because they’re the (38:44) ones that single handedly came in and really dedicated themselves to this case, to helping (38:52) me through what we went through. 

I just met Tom M. Tom Manganiello. Yes. He’s one of my favorite (38:58) people on earth. 

Another fellow, Sam Monaco, who was sitting here just a few weeks ago, (39:04) has introduced us. Yeah. Oh, nice. 

Great guy. And met him at Mish Auto as well. (39:08) Good. 

Yeah. He’s an amazing man to know. He’s actually the grandfather of Mish Auto. 

He’s (39:12) the one that started Mish Auto. Oh, that’s good. Very good. 

Well, shout out to Tom. (39:16) Yeah. I love that man. 

So they came in and we had a great judge too in Detroit. We went through, (39:28) it was supposed to be injunctive relief. It should have been a 20 minute quick in and out. 

And she (39:33) ended up having a two day hearing out of it. I think I sat on the witness stand for like six (39:37) hours. It was crazy. 

She wanted to truly understand what was happening. Yeah. So I (39:42) don’t think most people understand that about business court cases and how they’re typically (39:46) won or lost. 

It’s who can explain in simplest terms why you still have the attention of (39:53) all the right people. Right. It’s not like you see on TV. 

No. Oh no. No, no, no. 

It was pretty (40:02) amazing though. At the end of it, she, an injunctive relief, normally they don’t give, (40:10) it’s not a monetary award, but she made them pay us basically. She said, you can’t do this. 

(40:16) They have proved that they sent you the goods. You use the goods. There’s nothing wrong with (40:21) the goods. 

They have no fault in this. You need to pay them for it. So she awarded them or she (40:28) awarded us what they owed us was all of the outstanding accounts receivable, a few million(40:33) dollars worth, three or four or something like that. 

And then she also made them buy the inventory (40:38) for us, which was incredible ish. Judgment versus getting paid. So we got paid. 

Well, we got paid, (40:46) you know, we, that I won’t even get into that story. That was a whole sordid story. It took us (40:50) weeks. 

We had to come back in. The judge had to come in off of her vacation, threatened to put (40:55) somebody in jail until they paid us. It was fun. 

So that allowed us to, then we got paid that (41:02) allowed us then to go into a restructuring phase. So, you know, we went from, I don’t know, (41:07) should have been 50 million in sales plus down to the next year, three and a half million. (41:12) Wow. 

And how did you keep the company together? Was it just a skeleton crew type? (41:19) It was, unfortunately, when I got that cancellation of contracts, (41:24) of course, right before Thanksgiving, you know, coming up on the anniversary date, (41:30) I had to bring in our entire organization, close to 50 people. And I laid everybody off, (41:36) everybody. And I mean, including myself, we had no money, who we had zero income at this point. 

(41:43) The best part was I had personal guarantees on everything. So had we not gotten injunctive (41:48) relief, I would have been in a van down by the river eating government cheese with a tin cup, (41:53) right? I would add nothing. So yeah, so that was fun. 

But I had to lay off the entire organization, (42:00) promptly went in my office, I puked in my garbage can. And then I walked in the conference room, (42:06) and I had my entire executive team waiting there for me. And they said, What’s next? (42:10) Wow, I’m like, can’t pay anybody. 

And they knew that. And they showed up to work every single day (42:16) for over six weeks, because that’s how long it took us to get injunctive relief. (42:21) Without pay, without knowing if they were going to get paid to handle the what was left of our (42:27) business. 

I mean, to be out, you know, running high lows, packaging parts, taking do doing the (42:34) things that we had people to do, they all jumped in and just made it happen. So that’s the reason (42:40) I’m sitting here. It’s not because I did something miraculous. 

It’s because I have this amazing team (42:45) of people that supported me that supported each other that believed in what we’re doing and kept (42:50) it going. That’s amazing. What did it take to turn around? Where’d you get the next sale? (42:54) I mean, we restructured. 

We restructured in 19. And of course, we had programs to launch that (43:01) were already on our docket. We did lose a few programs because of the restructuring. 

So what (43:05) we’re going through is too risky for some of our customers, which I get. But then of course, (43:11) we went through restructuring and 20 COVID hits. So that was fun. 

And then we lost three quarters (43:18) of our sales. And then the chip crisis, logistics crisis, the labor strike last year, the hurricane. (43:28) I’m like, can we just please just make it all stop?(43:30) You learned how to take punches early. 

(43:32) Yeah. Well, I just keep getting up. I don’t know if that’s smart or not. 

Maybe I should just stay (43:36) down. (43:37) You might be concussed. (43:38) Well, I don’t know. 

It’s been a fun time in the automotive industry though. (43:45) Wow. Amazing. 

Well, you want to take a breath? (43:47) I know. I just get to curl up in a ball and cry for five minutes. (43:51) Yeah. 

But okay. So I’m going to brag about you a little bit here too. So in the middle of all that, (43:57) I remember you and I are talking on the phone and you said, (44:00) hey, I’m joining up in this international MBA, blah, blah, blah. 

(44:06) Well, why not? (44:07) And I’m like, oh, okay. Since you have other things to focus on.(44:11) I mean, when you’re batshit crazy, just keep going. 

(44:15) Yeah. So you only know one direction in that throttle, huh? (44:19) I do. I think I have issues. 

(44:21) Maybe, but they’re good issues. They’re good for things like this. You get to talk about it. 

(44:26) I know, right? (44:26) Interesting stories. So talk about the global executive MBA program that you did and how cool (44:34) that was. (44:35) That was awesome. 

It was so cool. So I started in 2019, which I kind of suck because I started (44:39) pre-COVID. It was supposed to be like everything else in my life. 

It was supposed to be a year (44:43) and a half long program. And I think I graduated in a four. I mean, it just fits with my undergrad. 

(44:47) So it’s fine. (44:49) So you have 30 years of schooling. (44:50) Yeah. 

I should be a doctor twice over. Yeah. It started in 2019. 

(44:56) So the program is through TRIUM. It’s called TRIUM. (45:00) And it’s a tri-degree between Paris at UC, London School of Economics, and the NYU Stern (45:09) School of Business, which was awesome in and of itself with those three degrees because (45:14) they’re so varying in what you get. 

(45:16) And this is not just an online? (45:17) No, god no. (45:18) This is in-person? (45:19) No, that was part of the appeal because I love to travel. (45:23) Right? I love to network. 

I love to learn about new industries. Just part of that (45:28) entrepreneurial spirit. I think I just really love to learn stuff. 

And it was supposed to (45:36) be six modules over a year and a half with I think the average cohort size is like 30 (45:42) to 35 people and representing several different countries. (45:46) So I think, I don’t even remember, I think out of our cohort, actually, I think the (45:54) cohort’s 60 people and it’s 30 different countries. That’s what it is. 

Sorry. (45:58) There’s no test. (46:00) I know. 

But if anybody from there is listening, I’m going to get beat up on. (46:04) Really cool experience. Yes, it is 30 different countries. 

Cohort is 60. Average age is like (46:10) in the mid 40s. So I was just bringing it up a little bit because back then I was still (46:16) in my upper 40s. 

But it was amazing. So we had modules. We went to London, obviously, (46:27) for London School of Economics. 

We did a module in San Francisco and Silicon Valley. So did (46:32) a lot of different visits with companies, which was cool. Paris, obviously, a couple (46:37) times we did a module in Dubai. 

And then, of course, in New York, we did a module. (46:42) And those are what, two weeks at a time? (46:43) Yeah, it’s like two weeks intensive. It’s pretty crazy. 

You have pre-work and post-work, (46:48) a lot of reading, little assignments, group assignments. You get different groups, (46:53) which is fun working with a lot of different type A personalities all over the world trying (46:59) to coordinate time zones. (47:00) Could everybody speak English too? (47:01) Yeah, it’s an English speaking course. 

Yeah, but it was just such an amazing experience (47:08) because I didn’t do it for the education per se. You can go online and learn anything. (47:13) I did it for the camaraderie, for the networking. 

I can literally pick up the phone and, you know, (47:19) if I want to do something in South America, I have people to call. If I want to go to Dubai (47:23) and open up a business, I know exactly who I’m going to talk to. It’s really cool to have (47:27) that network worldwide. 

And you end up just, you’re almost like family with these people (47:35) at the end of it because of what you go through. (47:37) Well, you’ve been in the foxhole together. (47:40) Seriously, those 7am wake up calls after you, you know, might’ve hit the bar after class (47:44) until a little too late and you’re struggling through. 

(47:46) Because you said it was like 7am until like 7pm. I mean, these were all day. (47:49) Mostly, yeah, they’re all day. 

All day. And then you’ve got group projects that you’re (47:54) working on. At the end of it, you do a capstone project. 

So you have a capstone group where you (47:57) basically put a business plan together to start a business. And that’s, you present that at the (48:02) end of your capstone project. So it was just a really great experience. 

(48:06) Very cool. (48:07) It’s fun also to have four degrees sitting on my desk now. (48:11) There you go. 

(48:12) I just like looking at them. I won’t ever do anything with them, but they’re cool. (48:16) So what does Lucerne look like today? How many people? Where are you located? Talk a little bit(48:21) about that. 

And then let’s talk about this, what we’ve got coming up in the future here, (48:24) which is pretty amazing. (48:25) So I think we’ve probably got around 40-ish full-time employees. Don’t quote me on that. 

(48:33) We’re in Auburn Hills. That’s where our headquarters are. And we’ve still got offices(48:36) in Shanghai. 

So we’ve got a whole team over there. I just actually did an acquisition in (48:45) November of 22 of a machine shop, which was fun. That was my first acquisition because we’re (48:50) starting, obviously, to vertically integrate and start pulling some of that work back on shore. 

(48:55) That’s our goal, is for localization, be where our customers are. We have global customers. (49:01) We ship to Brazil. 

We ship to Mexico. We ship a little bit to Europe. (49:06) But we are making big moves right now. 

And we’re on-shoring, building a facility, (49:12) hopefully, here in Detroit for hot aluminum forging, which is one of our largest commodities. (49:18) Great. And will it be in the city of Detroit, do you think? (49:20) In the city. 

So we’ve got the piece of land. We’re working with a developer. (49:26) Everything is moving forward on that right now. 

Really exciting, actually. (49:30) Under the Inflation Reduction Act, there are some tax credits that were out there. And we applied (49:35) for this, what was called a 48C tax credit. 

A couple hundred companies nationwide applied for (49:40) it. And I think there was just under 100 that were allocated, and we were one of those companies. (49:46) So we got a $7.2 million tax allocation for this facility. 

We just applied for round two, (49:51) so hopefully we’ve got a little more for the expansion phases we’ve got coming up. (49:55) But we’re creating close to 375 jobs over the next four years. In an area in Detroit that is (50:03) economically depressed, really can use that financial impact. 

It’s where the new bridge (50:08) is being built, the Portico. We’re right across, actually, from the Wastewater Treatment Center. (50:13) So don’t come visit me on a hot day in July. 

It’s not bad. I went there, just stood in the (50:18) middle of the property just to check it out. I was like, okay, I think we can make it. 

It’s okay. (50:23) Really excited about it. It’s a super great opportunity. 

It’ll pretty much 10X us overnight. (50:31) Lots to do. Lots of fun stuff between building, working with developers, working with investors. 

(50:38) It is the first time that I’m reaching outside of my own pockets. So we’re looking for equity (50:45) investors, trying to finish up that, which is a whole new level of fun for me. (50:49) Okay, great. 

Well, maybe this will give you some notoriety. (50:53) Yeah. Hey, anybody’s interested and they want to rebuild the American manufacturing base, (50:57) now’s your chance to get in from the ground up. 

(50:59) Amazing. Amazing. What else you want to talk about? (51:04) I don’t know. 

You already put me through the ringer. (51:06) Yeah, I know. I know. 

Talk about something fun. I mean, (51:08) obviously that was fun to talk about your new plant. I mean, that’s going to be amazing. 

(51:12) I’m excited. (51:13) 10X-ing your company is always fun. The partnerships that you’re(51:16) working on sound like fun. 

So what’s new in family life then for the next foreseeable future here? (51:24) Well, we’re helping my husband find his future. So my kids are older. So my daughter, (51:33) my 19-year-old daughter, she graduated a couple of years ago. 

She’s a personal trainer working in (51:37) the fitness industry. My other daughter’s about to turn 16, so it’s a whole new level of fun. (51:43) And my husband’s not needed as much, and my son’s 14. 

So we’re just kind of starting to (51:51) roll up our sleeves and decide what the next phase of our lives look like. Funny story, (51:57) my son’s in Boston right now on his eighth grade trip. (52:00) Oh, really? (52:01) And my daughters are so independent, like they don’t need much from us. 

And (52:06) I was home, I think it was just a couple of nights ago, and my husband’s like, (52:09) I’m bored. What do you want to do? Can we go? And I was like, this isn’t going to work for me(52:14) long term. We really need to figure out, we need something for you. 

Because he’s so lonely with (52:23) my son being gone that it’s just driving me crazy. (52:25) We have to do an episode where it’s just you and Scott, because I think for people who don’t know(52:29) you guys as a couple, you’re one of the most fun couples ever. And just the dynamic that you have (52:36) is very special, very unique. 

(52:39) I’m pretty lucky he’s a good guy. (52:41) Yeah, I would say so you are. No, he is too. 

(52:45) Yeah, I’m luckier, trust me. I know what I put that man through. (52:51) Well, that’s great. 

Well, I mean, you’re doing amazing things. You’re a survivor, you’re a (52:56) fighter through and through. And I’m so happy to call you a friend and I’m so happy that you did (53:02) this with me. 

(53:03) Thanks, man. I appreciate it. (53:04) Great. 

All right. Mary Buck Ziger, aka Mary Buck from Lucerne International. Thanks for being here. 

(53:14) Thanks.