(0:00) Welcome to the BLTNT podcast. I’m your host, Matt Loria, serving up real stories of business, (0:05) life, technology, and transformations. You’ll hear from interesting people about big changes (0:09) from career shifts to life-altering decisions and the innovations that help make it all happen.

(0:14) It’s about sharing those light bulb moments, pivot points, challenges overcome, and the journeys (0:19) that inspire us to think differently. If you’re on the lookout for insights to propel you forward, (0:23) stories that resonate, or just a bit of inspiration on your next BLTNT move, (0:27) you’re in the right place. Let’s dig in.

Welcome back to an in-studio version of the (0:44) BLTNT podcast with a very special guest, our new background. Actually, this is the first episode (0:51) we’re shooting with the new background. Thank you to our team here, including Jackie, who made this (0:55) all come together.

So thank you for beautifying our studio here. And thank you to our guest here, (1:01) Ron Thomas, for our episode that we’re calling Bike Rides to Building. (1:05) All right.

Thanks for having me here on this episode of Between One Fern. I appreciate it. (1:10) We are very happy to say that Ron is the first person who noticed our ode to Between Two Ferns (1:15) with our plant here behind us.

I don’t know if you can see it in the camera shot or not, (1:21) but we’ve been waiting for somebody to pick up on that and make reference. So thank you for (1:26) catching that. My pleasure.

Zach Galifianakis, thank you very much. We appreciate your… (1:33) Inspiration. (1:33) Inspiration.

Yes. Yes. So Ron is here all the way from Wyandotte, Michigan, (1:40) where he has been beautifying that great city.

But we also have something else exciting today (1:46) is that Ron is the first person to bring an in-studio guest. His wife, Sam, is here with us, (1:52) along with Jackie. So if you hear any of what you would normally perceive as the canned laughter (1:58) or applause, notice that today it’s actually… It’s the real deal with Sam and Jackie here.

(2:04) But if you feel scorn in the ambiance, just know that that’s synthetic and added in. (2:08) Absolutely. Absolutely.

If there’s any scowling or anything like that, we’re going to ignore that. (2:13) So I know Ron through a business peer group that we belong to, but Ron’s a father, husband, (2:21) pilot, bike rider, entrepreneur, real estate mogul who’s revitalizing the city of Wyandotte. That’s (2:29) his newest claim to fame.

But we’d love to hear your story. Want to share this with folks because (2:36) you really made a very interesting transition. And you know at the BLTNT podcast, we talk about (2:41) business, life, technology, and transformations.

And we love transformation. So I don’t think (2:46) we’ve seen one as wild as a guy who flips upside down on bikes to a guy who revitalizes a city. (2:54) That all feels generous.

I’m excited to talk about it. Absolutely. It’s been a fun ride, (3:00) certainly.

Great. Well, can you tell us a little bit about your story? (3:05) I think we should start off with how you met Sam, of course. (3:09) At a skate park.

She was 14. I was 19. We were friends for years and started dating, (3:16) I don’t know, many years after that.

And then pretty much best friends along the way. (3:22) Great. Well, thanks, Sam, for driving him here.

I know he was drinking a little bit this morning (3:27) in preparation of this, so we needed him to be brought safely over here. (3:32) Yeah, much appreciated. And thanks for the cocktails along the way.

(3:34) Yeah. So tell us about this journey. So let’s talk about this business career here of you went from (3:44) bike riding to building.

And you’ve told me the story, and I’ve been so excited to share this (3:50) because I just think it’s remarkable, your kind of tenacity and the things that you saw at a really (3:56) young age of what you wanted, what you didn’t want. And so will you share us your story? (4:02) Yeah, I’d be happy to. And then thanks for all the complimenting comments and observations there.

(4:08) I kind of had two ambitions when I was a kid. One was born of time, but I was just I really(4:14) enjoyed bike riding. I picked it up when I was maybe 11 years old.

And then throughout high (4:17) school, I wanted to be a professional bike rider. That was my that was my thing. And I grew up in a (4:22) family with nobody went to college.

There’s no business background. There’s nothing like that. (4:26) My dad fixed glass and cars and my mom worked at the post office.

And so we didn’t have much. (4:31) And as I became an adult, I was, you know, came also to the realization that I would like to do (4:37) something that puts me on financial better footing in my life. Turns out that’s in direct conflict (4:42) with riding bikes for a living, but I was too young and dumb to know that.

So I just pursued (4:46) this this idea of I want to go be a professional bike rider. And so I right out of high school, (4:50) I dropped out of college. I had a scholarship and I gave that up so I could go pursue a career (4:54) in bike riding.

And after a year or two, and I was making 7000 the first year and then 14,000 (4:59) the second year. Gross annually. Right.

So nothing. And I had the realization that I needed (5:05) to maybe pursue a different path or at least broaden my horizons of what riding bikes for (5:10) a living could be if I was going to not be poor. And so what that looked like for me was (5:16) self-education.

I dropped out of college because I liked because I wanted to go pursue this dream (5:22) of riding bikes. But it wasn’t because I didn’t want to educate myself. So eventually I found my (5:25) way back to university.

But but when I would be traveling, you know, between events year round, (5:31) I’d be in the backseat of a Suburban and be three of us guys and we’d be going and doing (5:34) these performances. And and they’d read like bike riding magazines and they’d make fun of me (5:40) because I bought and I told you this beforehand, but I’ll never forget it. Mutual funds for dummies.

(5:45) Right. I’m like, I don’t know anything about money, but maybe this is a good place to start.(5:48) And so I’d read that in the back and then they would just make fun of me for it.

And ironically, (5:52) they came to work for my companies over time once once I continue educating myself. (5:57) And I kept riding bikes. Yeah, they didn’t think you were a dummy anymore.

Yeah, that might be (6:01) generous. I still do sometimes. And they’re well founded in that idea.

That’s great. So in the bike (6:08) riding, though, walk us through the kind of your your career there. I mean, you turned it into a (6:16) business that you then exited, which kind of gave you the footing to get where you get kind of the (6:22) foundation of where you where you’re starting into today, you know, when and right before the (6:26) recession in 08.

So 2006 or seven is when I started my first business. I saved up thirteen thousand (6:32) dollars by riding bikes for a living. And then during the off season, I worked as a plumbing (6:36) repair person and I just put away everything I could.

So I had 13 grand and I always liked (6:40) building things even back in high school. And I thought, you know, at that point I was intrigued (6:44) by real estate. I was like, I would like to flip a house or maybe I can start a business that (6:48) produces the events I was performing in.

And at the time and this is I studied economics later on (6:54) in college. But before that, I just looked at things. I said, OK, back then the prevailing thought (6:59) was that real estate always goes up in value and it was going up 10 percent a year at the time (7:03) houses.

Right. And I thought to myself, well, if wages go up two percent per year on average and (7:08) houses go up 10, then in about five years, no one can afford a house anymore. This doesn’t (7:12) make sense.

I’m scared of it. So I instead invested that thirteen thousand dollars. I had to start my (7:16) event business, thankfully, because a couple of years later, the entire real estate economy collapsed.

(7:22) But that was how I got started. I made that choice then. And I kind of pursued the bike riding for a (7:26) while, always knowing that eventually I wanted to make the jump into real estate on a full time (7:31) basis.

But in the near term at the time, I thought bike riding events was more attainable. (7:37) But it was done on that napkin math of the two percent versus the 10 percent. And I feel like (7:43) this is going to be a losing gig somewhere along the way.

Yeah, that’s like that dog don’t hunt. (7:47) And I didn’t know why yet, but I was like, there’s just something there that doesn’t doesn’t work. (7:51) So you figured it out before.

Who’s the who’s the guy in the movie that the big show? (7:56) You were the big short. I wish I would have been in his shoes. I think he figured out a little (7:59) better than I did.

But so the company, talk about what the company did. Yeah. So Rise Above (8:06) Entertainment is technically the name of the company.

It’s now Rise Above Ventures. It’s a DBA. (8:10) But what what I did, the way that company earned revenue was I would put on marketing events.

So (8:15) when I was a traveling performer, we had these big, heavy ramps and there were three of us and (8:20) we would set up the equipment and then we would also do the performances. Right. We were the guys (8:23) that would do the backflips on bikes and also set up everything.

And the equipment was just (8:27) very inefficient. Lugging it around was terrible. Most of our events were in schools.

So you had to (8:31) take this equipment through like single doors in and out of gyms. It was just a pain. And with the (8:36) background in metal fabrication from high school, I thought I could design better equipment that (8:41) would make our jobs a lot easier.

So I approached the boss at the time, the guy that I was touring (8:45) for, and I said, hey, give me a budget of a few thousand bucks and I’ll design and build this (8:50) new equipment that will make things way better. And he either thought I couldn’t or didn’t want (8:54) to or whatever. So that $13,000 I saved up, that’s what I did.

I designed and built new equipment (9:01) that was much more efficient and made the performances easier and it was easier on the (9:05) performers themselves. Because they could put it together, take it apart easier, it was lighter. (9:10) Rather than a bunch of pieces you carry around, these were just equipment that would fold up on (9:13) racks.

Picture a bicycle ramp that’s like the size of an F-150 that you can fold up and fit (9:18) through a single doorway and it takes five minutes, right? Rather than an hour of lugging around (9:22) pieces. So that was kind of how it started. I designed, built this equipment, called some (9:26) customers that I knew, hired the business I used to work for, and they had liked me (9:32) personally.

We got to know each other. So then I sold a week worth of events for like $10,000 (9:36) gross and so began my first business. Amazing.

Do you still have those ramps in the backyard? (9:42) I think I have one left rotting away in some piece of land I have somewhere now, but my former (9:47) partner. So eventually, at our peak, we were doing almost a thousand events a year (9:53) and that’s a few teams traveling, doing multiple events a day. Fundraising companies at schools were (9:58) our biggest customers, but we weren’t really making any money.

And I always thought of it as (10:04) once we had enough of a platform, if you will, I might have been able to adapt it for some marketing (10:09) use. And so this is where that business actually took off for a while and did well. I partnered (10:14) with a guy that sold traditional sports marketing for the Pistons and we approached, well the (10:21) National Guard approached him and then he came to me and said, hey, let’s develop a program for them.

(10:26) So I researched everything that they needed in terms of marketing. It’s basically soft recruiting (10:30) and came up with a program that they found value in and we ended up getting(10:37) sponsored by National Guard and the Army to do events where they paid for the whole tour(10:41) like all around the country. Talk about soft recruiting.

What is soft recruiting all about? (10:46) Soft recruiting is basically going inside of, in our instance, we would go into high (10:51) schools with National Guard branding everywhere and we would produce these events that basically (10:56) painted National Guard military service in a positive light. So it’s not a, hey go sign up (11:01) for the military, but it’s like positive PR. Most military branches have, by statute, the (11:06) right to go into public high schools at least or even the obligation a couple times a year.

(11:10) And so they would use that as, use us as an opportunity for FaceTime, more or less. (11:18) But that was where we actually started to make a good living. We were able to (11:22) charge a lot more because of government contracting.

We can talk about that, but I have mixed (11:29) opinions on it. But in any case, that was the nature of how things worked for us. So for a few years (11:34) we were producing these events, making good money doing it, and the second I earned (11:39) anything from that, I just left my lifestyle the exact same as it was.

I mean my mortgage payment (11:43) at the time was like $300 and we just invested all of it in investment real estate. And that was (11:48) how we really got, that’s how I began the transition. And what were the first, what was your first start (11:52) into investment real estate? Was it single family homes? Yeah, I was, so I went, I eventually went (11:57) to Penn State in Pennsylvania because it was close to an action sports camp where I was, you know, (12:01) training and recruiting bike riders, that kind of stuff.

But we had, during a summer off, we, my wife (12:05) and I, my now wife and I, came home to to wind out where I’m from. This was 2010, so after the (12:10) recession. Bought a foreclosed house for $35,000, put another $30,000 or so into it, which was our combined (12:16) life savings at that point.

And then at the end of the summer we thought, well, our intention was (12:21) to rent it and I was going to go back to Penn State and finish. But we owned the house free and clear, (12:25) all our friends and family were there, we wanted to continue in real estate. So we ended up moving(12:29) into that house and then wash, rinse, repeat as much as we could with single family houses for (12:33) the first seven or eight years.

Okay, yeah, okay. And was that your only job at the time or did you (12:38) have to take on other, other work while you were doing that as well? No, I was, I was running the event (12:42) business. Oh, you still were, okay.

Yeah, so the event business I ran or was affiliated with, like, right (12:47) until the beginning of COVID. Oh, no kidding, okay. Yeah, I mean, there were some turbulent times.

I (12:51) started to make the transition into real estate full-time in maybe 2016 or 17. But yeah, I had (12:57) that for about 15 years. Okay, and then when did you get this vision of, when did it morph from (13:03) single family to, hey, you know, we know you in our, in our group of friends, we, we know you as (13:09) the guy who’s revitalizing, why not, right? Sure, sure.

Well, so, so when did it, like, from single (13:17) family to commercial real estate? Yeah, when did you make that transition? I had, I did, I did what’s (13:21) called a portfolio loan. So I had three rental properties, single family houses, and I went to a (13:26) bank and I said, hey, can I get a mortgage against these so that I can get some cash back and go, (13:32) and go do this again. And, and my mortgage banker there, his name’s Dave, he, he recommended a book, (13:38) and it’s a little cheesy, but it has a really good explanation of how commercial real estate (13:43) finance works.

And it was called Multifamily Millions, it’s by a guy named Dave Lindahl. (13:48) So I read it, and, and that was kind of an epiphany, because then I understood, (13:53) I started to understand how if you can adjust or change or add value through creating cash flows (13:59) in real estate or in business, then, then you can dramatically change the outcomes. That’s not true (14:04) for single family houses.

Single family houses and the finance around them are really governed (14:09) by government subsidy. And what I mean by that is the 30-year fixed mortgage, because those are (14:14) packaged up and then regulated by the government and sold to Wall Street. So nobody looks at renting (14:20) single family houses in mass as, the commercial finance just works differently, I guess.

I’m (14:28) doing a bad job of explaining it. Single family houses are all valued based on what the next (14:33) owner-occupant will pay for it. So if you adjust the underlying financials, it doesn’t really (14:39) affect the valuation.

Whereas in commercial, you’re buying something only because of its (14:44) income potential. And so the buyers and sellers of that pay for that income potential. And if, (14:51) so once you learn how to, once you learn how to basically make that work better or make something (14:56) make more income, then the value goes up a lot.

So would it, would it make sense to share that (15:00) spreadsheet for people to see? We’ll put it up on the screen here. Ron had shared with me a basic (15:07) example of commercial real estate finance and what that, you know, how a small tweak in adding value (15:15) in terms of rent. So this example is just a hundred dollars difference in rent per unit in a commercial (15:23) building, what that can do.

And so then this makes it real easy for us to see that that hundred (15:28) dollars makes an enormous difference and really is what gives you the guiding principles of how (15:34) much could I invest in fixing this place up? Yes, yes. This is a, so this is just a fictitious example (15:38) I came up with. But, but this is exactly how it works.

If you look at scenario A and scenario B, (15:43) the only difference is the rent per month. And I raised it $100. So this is a fictitious 30 unit (15:50) apartment building.

Let’s say you buy it and rent $1,000 a month and you don’t do anything except (15:55) for say, okay, well, you know, I think market rent is really $1,100 here. So you raise rent by $100 (16:00) per unit. It all works out to a bottom line of a value increase and equity increase of $483,000 (16:07) given these inputs, but these inputs are reasonable assumptions for an asset like this.

(16:11) So this is a lot of big apartment building investors. This is what they, this is basically (16:15) the game they play. I do something similar except for, I don’t usually just buy something and do(16:21) nothing with it and increase rents.

Rather, I’ll find a property that’s like completely (16:24) vacant or dilapidated and then, and then come up with some new financial highest and best use (16:30) and then build it out. So for example, the, the, the most recent property that you’re working on (16:35) is a, a former vacant school building. Yes, yes.

That’s being completely converted into (16:41) 30 single family dwellings, correct? Correct. Yeah. And that’s, that’s a larger deal for me, (16:47) but more typical of the type of deal I do.

But what, what this is, is it’s a, I actually went (16:51) to elementary school here for a few years. But it’s a, it’s a 59,000 square foot, beautiful (16:57) masonry building that’s been vacant for 15 years. And it’s a, it’s on four acres and it’s walking (17:02) distance to downtown Wyandotte.

I, I bought that for a dollar, which seems crazy, but the dynamic (17:08) the city faced was paid 2 million to knock it down and sell the land for a fraction of that (17:12) or pay nothing and then have somebody develop it. So I was able to figure out basically the (17:17) financial capital stack, put together the money to make it make sense to buy that, turn it into (17:21) 30 residential units with five houses behind it. And then there’s a playground that we’re (17:27) just going to deed to the city as a permanent public park.

But that was ultimately the deal (17:31) I put together and we’re actually starting on it this week. Awesome. Awesome.

Great. And you (17:35) said on that, on a deal like that, there’s also some other, um, tax incentives for doing that, (17:41) that, that, that we’re probably getting into a commercial real estate 4.0 here.(17:47) Yeah, that’s a 400 level class, I should say.

Yeah. If this is a, you know, this is the entry (17:53) level class and the Brownfield tax credits and that kind of thing. It’s kind of like the doctorate (17:56) course.

Um, but, but yeah, there’s a deal like that, like the school building, um, the cost (18:01) to reconstruct it, um, probably exceeds or at least equals the value of what it will be worth (18:07) when it’s done. So no developer would do that. Why, why spend two years and however many millions (18:12) of dollars to do a renovation only to earn nothing in the end.

So that’s when, when certain (18:17) kinds of tax incentives and different kinds of financing that you can typically get, or at least (18:22) sometimes get, make things viable where they otherwise wouldn’t be. And that’s the kind of (18:26) stuff I do sometimes. Yeah.

And what does your business enterprise look like today in terms of, (18:30) you know, what are you owning? What are you renting? What do you, how many employees do (18:34) you have? What does that all look like? We have about 15 full-time in-house employees, (18:39) about as many, uh, full-time subcontractors, um, that are on our projects pretty much day in, (18:45) day out. And then some of our properties, the larger ones have like specific staff to them. (18:49) Like I, uh, um, I’m part owner of a Marina, um, that is like a hundred thousand square foot of (18:55) buildings, 500 boat slips of restaurants and stuff.

And so there’s 120 people or so that (19:01) probably work there full-time. Most of which I don’t oversee because most of them are restaurant (19:05) employees and I have a partner that does that. Okay.

Um, but yeah, I mean, I have a group of (19:09) 20 to 30 on any given day that are full-time on our properties or projects doing something. (19:14) Great. And what did you learn from the, from the days of bike riding and managing that, (19:19) that group to, uh, to what you’re doing today? Uh, I don’t know how much of it is appropriate (19:26) to say here in a public forum.

No, it’s, it’s, this is podcast, so you can, you can say or do (19:31) whatever you want. Uh, you know, they, they don’t smoke weed during the day as much as they did in (19:35) the bike riding era, but, um, but some of them still do and yeah, they tolerate as much as (19:40) they need to, I suppose. No, but, um, the, you know, and I was hoping you’d ask a question (19:44) like this because there was so much that I learned in terms of, um, I don’t know, business (19:50) discipline and work ethic and all these, like when I was in bike riding, um, I mentioned I (19:55) lived in a camp in Pennsylvania, it’s called Woodward camp.

And this is a place where all the (19:58) top guys in the world for bike riding go to train. So like basically everybody who won the X games or (20:03) what was called the due tour back when for a period of 15 or 20 years from all over the world (20:07) went to this place in the middle of Pennsylvania to train. And that’s where I lived.

Um, and so I, (20:11) you know, some of my ex roommates were, were X games, gold medalists. All of my friends were, (20:17) I wasn’t, I wasn’t that good, but I was trying. Um, but, but in watching that, you know, you’ll, (20:22) you’ll learn so much about, um, risk and risk mitigation, you know, um, uh, about just work (20:29) ethic, uh, you know, persistence, all these things that directly apply to business, um, in a way that (20:34) I didn’t realize at the time, but I really appreciate it now.

And when you wake up every (20:39) day and you go to work in your job, you might break your arm or come home missing teeth, you (20:43) know, as has happened to me before. It kind of gives you a different risk perspective. Then when (20:49) you go to the office, it’s like, okay, maybe the stock market’s down, or maybe I overspent on this (20:53) project, but at least I still got my teeth in my mouth when I go home today.

So everything in (20:57) business that you see today feels like less of a risk than what you did flying upside down through (21:02) the air. Uh, less of an immediate risk in the moment. Sure.

Sure. Yeah. I mean, what I do now (21:07) is certainly more stressful and I think more difficult, but, but you get pretty well seasoned (21:12) if you go through action sports and probably all athletics and managed to survive it with your (21:16) head on your shoulders to go transition that into business.

Would you say some of the, the, (21:20) there’s a coolness and a calmness to you too. Would you say that, that, that translate? And (21:24) I’m going to talk to you about being a pilot, but, um, um, you know, because you are a pilot, (21:30) you have your own plane and, um, uh, how does, how does that, how did what you learned through (21:36) bike riding translate into, uh, being a pilot? I, uh, I don’t think that panic serves anybody (21:45) well in athletics or in business, if they’re a business leader and certainly not in aviation. (21:51) Um, so I think that, that skill translates.

I mean, and yeah, you know, I did learn that early (21:55) on, I guess, you know, if, if, if something’s going wrong, you’re in the air, you’re upside (21:59) down on a bike or whatever, you, you’re just, it’s almost instinctual after you’ve practiced (22:03) enough to do what you can to try to survive. And I think just being calm and collected and (22:07) thinking through the next steps, even if they’re coming at you fast is, uh, is useful in all (22:11) three of those things, bike riding, aviation, and business. Um, but a lot of that, yeah, (22:15) it does translate.

I also think that bike riding business, a lot of times and aviation, a lot of (22:21) times, uh, are things that command all of your attention and focus. You can’t, you can’t be doing (22:27) one of those things and then, and mine’s elsewhere, or you’re doing it pretty poorly and it’s pretty (22:31) dangerous. Um, and I think that’s true in business too.

And then you’re not listening to a podcast (22:36) flying upside down through the air and on your bike. I plead the fifth. Maybe the plane part.

(22:43) No, another, another comparison between the two, and this isn’t so much for bike riding,(22:47) but certainly for business and for aviation is, uh, like, like instrument flight instrument flight(22:52) is if you’re in conditions where you can’t see like clouds and stuff, uh, you’re, you’re flying(22:55) entirely just based on your instrumentation in the plane. I think the businesses that are well(22:59) run do that. Um, just like as a virtue, it’s you just, you know, you build your KPIs, you have(23:05) your metrics, you have your indicators and they’re unique to each business, but they tell you what (23:08) you need to know to make sure you stay on course.

That was one of the most interesting things you (23:11) told me the other day, uh, that really stuck with me was when you were talking about a friend of (23:15) yours who runs a really successful business from, from very far away. And you said, how do you do (23:20) it? And he, he gave you that line and said, yeah, it’s, it’s like instrument rating. And he was, (23:27) and he was the guy that got an inspiration of mine anyway, to get into aviation.

And he was a (23:31) commercial airline pilot before getting into what he does now. And yeah, yeah. He made the (23:35) comparison back when I, before I was instrument rated before I really understood it.

I mean, (23:39) I got it, but it’s, it’s a hundred percent true. So we do have to talk about the story of, um, (23:44) leveraging that instrument rating when you had a little bit of an icing problem.(23:48) So let’s, we’ll talk about a few of the, a few of the, uh, fun and not so fun, uh, (23:53) things that have happened as a pilot.

So, so tell us about that. We’ll show some of those (23:56) pictures too. Sure.

Sure. And if any of that, uh, that synthetic scorn I was talking about pops up (24:01) now, it’s probably cause my wife was with me on the plane that day and didn’t, didn’t love it, (24:04) but wasn’t sure she was coming out of it. Yeah.

Yeah. Jackie, can you pull some of those pictures (24:08) up while he’s talking? We went to, uh, we went to Vermont, I think it was Vermont last fall to, (24:14) to check out the, like the leaves changing colors. Right.

And it’s beautiful up there that time of (24:19) year, but we were coming home one night. Uh, I think it was a Sunday night, but it was nighttime (24:22) and it was instrument conditions, which means it’s, it’s cloudy. You can’t see it as night and, (24:27) and icing most people that aren’t pilots wouldn’t know this, but icing only happens if you’re right (24:32) around freezing and you’re in the clouds, right.

You have to have visible moisture and freezing (24:36) temperatures. So as we’re taken off in the mountains at night, and this is my first time (24:41) really experiencing icing, uh, all of a sudden, you know, we start taking on icing pretty heavy (24:46) and I ended up taking a picture of it, which, which I sent to you here, but it was such that (24:50) like out the front window of the plane, I had a square that was like this big and that’s all you (24:54) could see. Um, and when you’re, when you’re learning how to fly, uh, at least at my level, (24:58) and I’m not, you know, the most experienced pilot, you don’t go out and practice and this stuff, (25:02) right.

You, you, you do it in simulators. It’s all explained to you. You know how the equipment (25:08) works.

You test it before you fly every time, all that. Um, but at some point it has to be your (25:13) first experience in a situation like this. And that was mine for sure.

Yeah. It’s like, (25:17) it’s sweaty palms, but it’s like, like we talked about already, like just being calm, (25:21) paying attention, trusting your instruments, knowing what you’re doing, or at least as much (25:25) as you can. Did you phone a friend or anything while you were up there? There was no service (25:28) up there, but there was no service.

Yeah. Yeah. And what about air traffic? Anybody to talk to (25:33) while you’re, while you’re doing that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We were, we were, we were definitely (25:36) talking to air traffic and if you end up in a problem, they’ll guide you out of it. Um, (25:40) at least as much as they can, but yeah. Yeah.

Wow. I’m sure Sam was writing my wife, (25:44) writing emails to her mom telling her, you know, Hey, if something happens, (25:48) here’s where the keys to everything is. She’s not saying anything.

(25:55) So you said you had a couple of funny stories though. So, so you, we, we, we were up at a, um, (26:02) an event in Northern Michigan that you had flown to and, uh, and you took a few people back and, (26:07) and there was an incident that you, uh, you were telling me about. We won’t name any names.

(26:11) Okay. Um, I, I understand you have a light stomach from what you were saying also. (26:16) When it comes to picking up dog poop or brushing my teeth, you know, (26:19) I’ve got a pretty bad, bad gag reflex.

So I want, I once had a bird, uh, (26:24) take a dump on a bumper of my car and I went to wipe it off with a piece of paper and it kind of (26:28) smeared and I threw up, right? Like I do not have a good stomach for this kind of stuff. So, uh, (26:33) so yeah, so I was flying home with a certain individual who shall not be named. I was giving (26:36) him a ride home.

I flew up by myself to some event and I was going home and he lives in Canton, (26:39) Michigan and there’s a small airport there. Okay. Um, so, so yeah, I’ll give you a ride.

(26:45) Um, and he’s a big guy in my, if you’re a big enough guy, it’s difficult to get in the front(26:49) seat of my plane. Okay. So he sat in the back and I sat in the front.

It was only the two of us (26:52) and, and, and in my plane it circulates air. So there’s not a direct event to the outside. Okay.

(26:57) So, um, if, if, if an aroma happens, it’s there for a little while. So this guy, uh, the event,(27:05) he had a lot of drinks and I believe brisket from the night before. I remember what it smelled like.

(27:09) I think that’s what it was. Uh, and, and we’re good about 15 minutes from, from landing at(27:14) Canton to drop them off. And, uh, and that’s pretty turbulent flight.

And he’s, you know, (27:18) he tells me he’s going to throw up and that happens sometimes. So I, I, there’s a bag and I, you know, (27:22) I give him this bag, it’s a paper bag and a big guy, like I said, he couldn’t sit in the front. (27:25) So he goes, throws up, but the bag blows it out.

Right. And, and I mean, he has like, like a couple (27:31) cups full, full of vomit all, all over him covered. Right.

And like I said, I have a light stomach and (27:36) air circulated in the plane. So I’m up at the front and you know, if something smells bad enough, (27:41) it’s like the air’s thick. Yeah.

Right. I’m, I’m breathing through my mouth because if I breathe (27:44) through my nose, I’m going to have the same fate. Right.

So I’m, so I’m here in this turbulent (27:48) flight. He’s in the back, throw up, throwing up all over himself. I’m like about to do the same, (27:53) trying to breathe through my mouth just to get this thing landed.

Finally, we get in and we get (27:58) into this airport and we land. And, um, he, he didn’t have spare clothes with him. Right.

I don’t (28:04) know why he was at this convention for a couple of days, but for whatever reason. So, so he has (28:08) to get out of the plane covered and stripped down to his boxers. Right.

And calls his wife, (28:15) his wife has to stop it wherever she stopped at to buy him clothes on the way. So he’s there for (28:19) a good half hour, um, covered in vomit, cleaning my plane on the runway with, with like in his (28:24) boxers. And I wasn’t going to clean up any of that.

I mean, I’m, I’m all for helping a friend, (28:29) but I think he put himself in his own situation. Yeah. So graciously, he did a good job of (28:34) cleaning it up.

I have some funny pictures of him on the, uh, on the runway, uh, in his underwear. (28:39) And, um, I, I guess there’s just one more instance where keeping a calm head helps. (28:45) Good job.

And you were able to breathe through your mouth. Normally they say when you’re trying (28:49) to calm down, breathe in through your nose. This is one of those instances where this is where we(28:54) breathe through our mouth.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

It would have, uh, it would have been a bad scenario if I, (28:59) uh, went down the same path he did and still had to figure out how to land the thing. (29:02) Yeah. My, my vomit story, uh, doesn’t really hold a, hold a candle to that.

I had a little nephew, (29:08) uh, throw up in my car when it was about 10 hours old. My car was 10 hours old and he was about six (29:15) and he, uh, he, he let loose in that. And, uh, it was kind of funny, but nowhere, nowhere near, (29:20) nowhere near what you’ve got going on.

Well, you probably had to clean that yourself then. (29:23) I actually did. Yeah.

Yeah. Yep. Yep.

We were leaving, uh, where we ski and all of a sudden I (29:28) looked back and I said, you okay? He says, I don’t feel so good. And my wife turns around and she (29:34) leans back and she, all of a sudden her face winds up. She grabs his hat off of his head because he (29:41) starts barfing, went everywhere.

But where it went was it went in every crevice. Oh yeah. It (29:48) went right down the back of the, where the, where the pocket is in the back of the seat.

It went (29:52) through every crack on the door. I was cleaning that car. And it lingers.

It lingers. It stays (29:57) there for a while. And, uh, it is no fun, but, uh, vinegar is a, is a good, uh, uh, odor reducer.

(30:04) So I will, uh, I’ll be an advocate for, for vinegar, natural, natural odor eliminator. (30:10) That’s great. Um, so, you know, you’ve, you’ve, um, you’ve been quite a bootstrapper.

Um, (30:18) and all of this, one of the things I asked you, um, early on was, well, you know, did you take (30:22) these risks? Cause when you were a kid, you know, you could always just move back home or, you know, (30:26) a parent would bail you out. And you said, no, I didn’t really, I didn’t really have the bailout. (30:30) Um, so you’ve, you’ve never really had the safety net per se, um, of, you know, any sort of financial (30:37) backing or anything like that, that really felt, um, that comfort, um, talk about that a little (30:43) bit.

Okay. Um, yeah, that there’s, there’s a certain comfort that comes from, you know, (30:48) the idea of having nothing to lose. I think it’s a, uh, you, you try to end business, (30:53) play to your strengths and, you know, for, for young entrepreneurs or people just getting started, (30:58) a strength is having nothing sometimes if you treat it that way, um, because you can (31:02) have a big miss and where are you today? Well, you’re where you were yesterday.

(31:06) So that doesn’t, you know, um, so I operated on that principle, especially getting started,(31:10) but you’re right. I didn’t have, um, really financial backing, uh, at all. When I was, (31:15) when I was younger, I don’t come from money or whatever.

For me, it was learn the banking world, (31:20) right? And figure out how finance works and then go and actually meet the criteria to get funding (31:25) at some point. And that was very much just our first house that my wife and I bought our first (31:30) handful of investments were like this, but we spent all of our times, nights, evenings, weekends, (31:34) you know, she would do the drywall and I would do the plumbing. And, um, and that was kind of how it (31:37) began.

And once we began to build up equity, we could then go, you know, use that as a bit of a (31:41) safety net. Um, but that was, we just wash, rinse and repeat and really just self funded from the(31:47) outset, you know, her and I together at the beginning. And then once, once my event business (31:51) started doing good, it gave us basically more funding to, to continue to grow it.

Um, and these (31:57) days she’s involved with the business, but it’s like separate. She does real estate brokerage (32:02) as like a division of what we do. Um, it’s like a small business of her own and then all the (32:06) development stuff is, is on me now.

Okay. How do you translate that though to today where you do (32:11) have a lot to lose? And so how do you keep the, you know, the hungry mindset, balance all that (32:17) risk, you know, to, to take on these big projects where, you know, you, you could lose a big chunk (32:22) of your, you know, of your, of your fortune. Maybe you couldn’t go broke from them.

I’m not sure. I (32:27) mean, are any of these, you know, totally balls to the wall where you could, where you could go broke (32:32) on a, on a transaction? I don’t know if I could go broke on a transaction, um, like a singular one, (32:37) but I will say that anybody who thinks that they’re, you know, on top of the world and making (32:42) tons of money, like the world changes, right? I don’t think there’s any such thing as, as a business (32:46) proposition without risk. Um, I do, you know, I am fortunate in that I have business partners and (32:51) some mentors now that, you know, if I, if I need something, I can go to them to some reasonable (32:56) extent.

So I have some safety net in that regard. Plus, you know, I have my own wealth that we’ve (33:01) built up at this point that, that I can go to, um, if I need sometimes, but I, I, you know, I’m a big(33:08) fan of Jay Z. Um, and, and, and I’m just reminded by your question of him talking about a lot in a (33:14) lot of his songs, just that being wealthier is not easier. It’s actually harder, which is like (33:20) out of favor to say in front of most people, I think.

Um, but there’s a reason few people (33:25) really make that transition in life. Um, and, and I don’t think it’s for everybody. Um, and I think, (33:32) I think life is harder and more stressful now and sometimes less fun, but on net more worthwhile and (33:40) more well-suited to me.

But I just, if maybe some people experience easy street as business success (33:45) comes their way for me, at least at this stage, it’s been a grind. You’ve earned, you’ve earned (33:50) every, every dollar. It certainly feels that way.

Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like you’ve had (33:54) some layups along the way? Um, Oh yeah.

I’ve had some home runs. Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. And, (33:59) and I think maybe it came easier than what, than what you expected or yeah. Yeah.

We’re my, um, (34:05) my, my profession is so, uh, affected by macro economics that, um, like the last couple of years (34:11) have been harder because interest rates have been high because it’s a very capital intensive (34:14) industry. Um, so that, that tends to squeeze things and it’s never a, Oh, the world changed (34:19) a stock market’s down 50, whatever. Like, it’s not like that for us, uh, in real estate, but, (34:23) but with time, those kinds of things have a big impact.

So like now is harder. Like a few, 10 (34:28) years ago in real estate, you just couldn’t go wrong, go buy something, sell it a year later, (34:33) you’re going to make a fortune, you know? Um, but, but now you gotta be more careful, (34:36) like a lot of, uh, to, to buy and sell, um, properties now in a profitable way without (34:43) substantial renovation is from what I’m seeing pretty difficult. Um, lending’s pretty tight.

(34:49) Capital sources are kind of hard to come by all that. So that’s why a lot of times we do projects (34:54) with, um, like creative tax financing and all of these things, because it’s, it’s, it’s the only (34:59) way I can see to make it work sometimes, you know, if that makes sense. Yeah, it does.

Yeah, it does. (35:04) This episode of the BLTNT podcast is sponsored by Oxium, business IT and cybersecurity designed (35:10) to outsmart chaos. Empowered by Juniper Networks, automate your network with Juniper Networks and (35:15) the Mist AI platform, the world’s first AI driven wired and wireless network.

Um, do you have a, (35:24) uh, a reason behind the name of Rise Above? Yeah. Um, actually I have a tattoo and I got when I was (35:30) 18 that says Rise Above on it, but, uh, there’s a famous bike rider named Matt Hoffman. Um, (35:35) one of the most famous BMX riders ever.

And he, uh, he had a slogan, um, for ad campaign that (35:40) he ran when I was a kid that I remember it was just Rise Above and he was known for going, you (35:44) know, higher than anybody. And, uh, and I just always like it always resonated with me. So when (35:48) I started my event company, um, I called it Rise Above Entertainment, you know, inspired by that.

(35:53) And I just kind of kept the name, modified it to the new line of work. Nice. Nice.

And do you, (35:59) do you institute, does any of that kind of trickle down into any cultural or core beliefs of, (36:06) you know, what you’ve instituted in the company or even just in your life in general, where you go? (36:10) You know, like I got to look back and go, okay, Rise Above, you know, like, (36:15) sure. Yeah, absolutely. And that’s why I like the slogan from the outset.

It’s, uh, (36:20) I think, I think that we’re defined by what we do in moments of challenge, right. Uh, and that’s (36:27) like, you’ll go through transitions in life and, and often they’re there because something (36:33) happened that you weren’t expecting or some kind of challenge and how you react in those moments (36:37) are, are ultimately what defines what the future looks like. Years down the road, everybody might (36:41) see success and they might see failure based on what you do, but it’s the moment that nobody sees (36:45) where you’re like, okay, what am I going to do here that, that really determines, I think, (36:49) our outcomes.

And, and the name, the words Rise Above, I think is just a real good fallback to go, (36:55) like, okay, what am I going to do now? I’m going to figure out the best solution for it. I’m going (36:58) to rise above whatever the challenge is and I’m going to proceed, you know? Yeah. And I, I don’t(37:02) know if I’ve ever said it succinctly like that to everybody at the company, but now we got it(37:05) recorded.

Yeah. But I definitely think it fits the character of, of how we operate and everything (37:09) we do. Great.

And now, now looking, even though you say I haven’t, you haven’t articulated that (37:14) the same way, do you think that the team sees that in you? Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and we expect(37:20) it of them, right? It’s I, I am big on company culture and, and culture isn’t something like,(37:27) it’s not a policy that you share and say, everybody follow this. Instead, it starts with (37:31) really me.

And then everybody else has now been around for a long time. And it is, it is the, the (37:36) attitude that we exude. It’s how we carry ourselves.

It’s how we, you know, approach any given situation. (37:42) And, and that if you’re not on board with that in our company, then you shouldn’t be at our company. (37:46) Yeah.

Great. Great. What else do you want to talk about? How about Fern? Talk about Fern.

You know, (37:52) I have a picture of her on my phone. Fern’s my daughter. So I guess we really are between two (37:56) Ferns.

Yeah, we are. If she’s on that side. Yeah.

Yeah. My daughter. But as Sam pointed out, (38:01) this is not a Fern.

Well, to us it is. Well, yeah, she’ll get you on a technicality. (38:07) No, so yeah, I have a daughter.

She’s, she turned two in June. I was a somewhat reluctant, (38:15) pretty terrified, non-father going into fatherhood. Sam, Sam, Sam’s an excellent (38:21) mother.

And I knew she would be, and she, she wanted to have kids. So, so we did. But, but it (38:26) was a, it was a treacherous transition for me because I didn’t know what to expect.

You know, (38:30) and I’ve been, I’m big on freedom, personal autonomy, all that kind of stuff. And I was (38:33) afraid it might be an impediment on that. But now two years on, I can say she’s my favorite part of (38:37) my life.

And it surprises me how true it is when I say that. That’s great. Yeah.

How many hours (38:43) does she have under her belt in, in junior flight training? Maybe 200. Yeah. So I, so I got, (38:50) I got my, my first pilot’s license before instrument rating in October of 2022.

And (38:57) rented the plane from the school, like the next week and flew with her and my wife to,(39:03) we stopped in New York and then down to Florida for a wedding. And so I have a, I went, then she (39:07) was, it was like her four month birthday. Right.

So I have some pictures of her, you know, like (39:11) in the cockpit or on my lap with the headphones on when she was four months old. That’s great. (39:14) We’ll have to show that.

Yeah. There’s another thing. So recently we’re, we’re coming home from (39:20) Grand Haven.

So across the state of Michigan and she’s in the passenger seat. Now she’s, you know, (39:23) to the age where she’s mimicking us. Right.

So she’s touching my buttons and all this stuff. (39:27) And she grabs the ailerons, which is the controls. And like, even though it’s an autopilot, the (39:31) plane will move.

So she doesn’t really realize what’s going on, but she grabs the fuel mixture (39:36) and that’s the one button you don’t, because you pull that to nothing. That’s how you turn (39:39) the plane off. It’ll happen to this guy too.

So she grabs it and I’m like, no, no, no. We need to (39:43) calm down with all this touching buttons stuff. You’ve got to show some limits here.

For a guy (39:46) who’s into freedom, you’re like, we’ve got some limits here. Yes. Yes.

That’s great. That’s great. (39:52) And where did that, where did the name Fern come from? My wife came up with it.

It was inspired, (39:56) but we, we’d like to travel. We go to national parks. It’s like our, definitely a hobby and a (40:03) pastime of ours.

And, and it just reminds her of, I think, nature settings where you would find (40:07) ferns, which is probably why she knows that that is not one. There you go. One other thing I wanted (40:14) to ask is that you, you kind of, you’re an all-in guy, right? Sure.

And you mentioned that with your (40:20) plane, right? Is that you said, Hey, I could rent these planes. I don’t know how they’re maintained. (40:26) You know, I don’t know where all the buttons exactly are.

And so you decided (40:30) kind of go whole hog and just bite the bullet by a plane. Yeah, that was a, it’s, it’s part safety (40:38) part convenience. Right.

But, but the safety part is if, if you, if you like I own it, so I know (40:43) when it’s maintained, like right now it’s in for its annual inspection. I know those things are (40:46) getting done the way they should be. All the controls are left the way that they were.

Plus (40:49) you each, each plane is unique, right? They all have different controls, even though they do a lot (40:54) of the basic same stuff. You don’t want to be in a situation like, you know, icing in the mountains (40:58) in Vermont at nighttime and be second guessing where the thing is that you need to do to solve (41:03) that problem. And so for me, it was that, that, that sort of consistency, knowing the machine (41:08) itself.

And I mean, look, let’s be honest, right? There’s a lot of danger involved in aviation. (41:12) If you’re not trained and not doing it correctly. And so I was, I just thought it was worth the (41:17) money.

I think of it like insurance to, to, to get something that’s going to be consistent. (41:21) Almost remove a couple of the risks, remove some of the risk out of the equation for you. (41:26) Is there anything else in where that translated into where you would translate that into business (41:31) where you said, Hey, you know what? No one else in my industry has bought this particular tool.

(41:37) You know, I know that I’ve made some moves like that where I’ve said, okay, you know what? I’m, (41:40) I know this might sound crazy, but I’m going to make this investment. We’ve made some investments (41:45) in people ahead of, ahead of certain business. Is there anything like with a tool or with a person (41:50) or with a process, any, any other type of investment, like, like that plane where you’ve (41:56) done it in work, where you said, Hey, I’m going to, I’m going to, I’m going to do this to reduce risk (42:01) or put me at a, at a definitive advantage or anything like that.

At least locally. I, I, (42:07) I tend to take on the projects that other people won’t or are scared of. But it’s never from a (42:13) position of, Oh, let’s see how this goes.

Maybe we’ll get lucky. It’s always a very considered (42:18) look at the financials, figure out the plan, make it make sense. I think the reason I’m able to do (42:22) those kinds of projects is because I see things and opportunities probably by virtue of my (42:27) experience and education at this point that other people just don’t see.

Even though they’re there (42:30) for anybody to look at, but that’s just not, you know that that’s probably why I find myself in (42:34) that situation. Also because I’m from like a smaller area, South suburb Detroit, I’m not (42:39) competing against the big players. I’m not in downtown Detroit.

You used to use the terminology (42:43) with me was hyper-local. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Is that, so is that part of the, kind of the, the, (42:50) the major focus that for you would maybe reduce some risk, put you in the catbird seat? (42:56) I think it’s more just happenstance of where I am in my life and career, right? Like there, (43:01) there hasn’t been a need yet to branch out for growth purposes. You know, there, there was (43:05) enough low hanging fruit to get us to this point within a 10 or 15 mile radius of where I am.

(43:11) I see the future a little bit differently. And so you talk about back to your question, (43:15) investing in things that other people might not. We were a small real estate company that I think(43:20) tends to think like a big one.

We use, you know, we’re very data driven. That is definitely top (43:26) down. I insist on it.

But I don’t, I don’t like to make decisions based on gut instinct or emotion (43:31) or anything like that at all. For me, it comes down to data research. Does this make sense? (43:36) And so investing in tools, there’s a, something called the cycle monitor put out by a guy named (43:40) Dr. Glenn Mollier out of university at Denver.

And they teach this at Harvard. I went to there (43:45) online to, I took real estate finance classes there, but anyway, this is what they teach. (43:50) And it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it uses long-term average occupancy compared to current occupancy (43:57) to track property of different cycles through the, through the market.

And it does it in 54 (44:02) cities across the country, like 54 of the largest cities. It comes out every quarter. I read it (44:06) every quarter.

I highly recommend anybody interested in real estate to get familiar with it because (44:09) it’s a really good predictive tool, but but there doesn’t exist something like that for a more local (44:15) market outside of those 54 cities and those asset classes that are covered in there. The same(44:19) principles apply, but, but there’s not a, you know, a database that, that, you know, puts all that (44:26) together in an easy to digest way. So we’re starting to use AI and tools like that to develop those (44:32) kinds of tools, for example, for, for ourself, for our own investments and for any other investments (44:37) we might branch off into as we expand geographically.

Wow. Any other areas where you’re using technology (44:42) or AI to kind of better yourself or put yourself in a different position? Our, our technology, (44:49) aside from what I just told you about, is, I guess, fairly traditional. I mean, everything’s, (44:53) you know, like property service or management platforms, we use like cloud-based, like it’s all, (44:58) it’s all computer, it’s all data-driven, but I don’t have to, we’re, we’re more brick and mortar (45:02) than anything else.

Okay. Right. We, our typical thing is find some dilapidated property, fix it up, (45:08) and then manage it afterwards.

Like, you know, rent it out, lease it, fix it when it breaks, (45:12) that kind of stuff. But not necessarily flip and sell. So you’re typically develop and manage.

(45:17) Yeah. And again, I go to date on that. So no, I do sell, but I don’t often buy with the intent of(45:22) selling.

Paul from, from this business group, a guy that, that Matt and I both know gave a speech (45:29) recently called Private Equity Playbook. And he, he said this term his first time I’d heard it, (45:33) but I liked it. And he was talking about often private equity will have an investment thesis (45:37) and it is their exit strategy in five years or whatever, basically what they’re going to do.

(45:42) And that’s exactly how I tend to look at properties. It’s almost never buy, fix it up, (45:47) sell, make a buck. Instead it’s, what can this become? What, you know, and then if I decide to(45:52) sell something, it becomes a return on equity proposition, which, which just basically means (45:57) if, you know, after, after you’ve finished a property, you’ll have some amount of equity in it (46:01) and holding it, you’ll get some kind of return.

So you have a return against that equity. If I (46:07) have some other opportunities somewhere else where I can get, you know, a lot better return (46:10) by selling, taking that equity, putting it elsewhere, then, then, then I might, if I needed (46:15) it as a funding source. So that’s, yeah.

The thesis never, typically never is buy, fix, sell. (46:20) Yeah. Not for us.

Not for us. Yeah. Okay.

Great. What else, anything else you want to talk about? (46:25) Anything else you want to ask me? Um, what made you decide to start a podcast? (46:31) Uh, well, I’ve, I’ve told the story plenty of times, but I’ll tell it again. No problem.

(46:36) You must not watch the podcast enough to know. I have, but apparently not that part of it.(46:40) No, no, just teasing.

Um, you know, I just, uh, one day I was sitting at lunch at a, at a, (46:45) at a really nice place. And I looked across the table and I said, oh my gosh, I get to sit with (46:50) some amazing people just as part of my, my, you know, my kids think where I go out to breakfast (46:56) and lunch professionally, you know, for a living. Right.

And so, um, I needed to show them that I (47:01) could, I can do something else. That’s why I have this, but, uh, no, it was, you know, I’m sitting (47:05) across from this guy and I’m going, oh my gosh, I get to learn so many interesting things about so (47:10) many interesting people. And very often, you know, my, my, my MO is always, I’m, I’m trying (47:16) to create value for other people.

So, cause I know that it will come back to me and that’s, (47:20) that’s from an old, uh, Zig Ziglar line. You help enough people get what they want and you’ll (47:24) help enough people in the world, get what they want and you’ll be, you’ll, you’ll get what you (47:27) want. And so, um, you know, I always look at going into a meeting and saying, okay, who can I (47:32) introduce this person to? Right.

Who in my, in my, you know, I don’t like to be an, I, I, I tend to (47:38) be a name dropper cause I know a lot of people, but I don’t mean to be, what I’m really trying to (47:41) do is figure out who should I introduce this person to. And so, um, I thought to myself, you (47:46) know, uh, often I’m just, uh, introducing you to one or two people. If I did this in a forum that (47:53) was a little bit more scalable, like video and, and, you know, through podcasts and all the (47:57) platforms is why don’t we do this where, where I have a chance to introduce you to more people, (48:01) get some great brand association, uh, with you.

You know, uh, some of the people I know will want (48:07) to meet you. Some of the people that you know will want to meet me. And, you know, it’s a pretty (48:10) simple, simple equation.

I don’t, uh, I know Joe Rogan is shaken in his boots. He is very, (48:15) very concerned that the, uh, that the one plant, um, uh, podcast here we’ll, uh, we’ll take them (48:22) down. But, uh, you know, we didn’t go into this thinking it was going to be a money-making (48:25) endeavor.

It was more of a, uh, an additional value that we could provide and good things (48:29) will come from it. I don’t, I don’t care what my wife says. I think we should continue to (48:33) call that a fern.

I agree. And, uh, I love that. And I think it’s, you never know where the next (48:39) connection is going to come from in life.

Socially, you never know who’s going to help you with (48:43) something or who might just be a good friend or whatever. Um, but it’s just by virtue of getting (48:47) out there or having a podcast or doing something like this, you, you build connections that (48:50) ultimately do lead somewhere. You just, you know, I just, I think it’s, I think it’s a pretty cool (48:55) reason to start something like this.

And, um, and, and no doubt it’ll have a positive impact. (49:00) So yeah. Yeah.

I, you know, I mean, I’ve always found that, um, you know, it’s definitely not (49:05) what you know, it’s who, you know, and, and obviously building trust and, um, and providing (49:09) value. And that started early in my life, but it got, it got really cemented with, um, with one of (49:16) my mentors and friends, Paul Glantz from Imagine Theaters. It was one of our first, uh, first (49:21) larger customers, uh, at our company.

And the trust that he had put into me very early on because (49:28) of the relationship that kind of brought us together and how we knew each other was just (49:33) remarkable to me. And so I try to, you know, I tried to do the same thing that he taught me. (49:37) And that is to kind of trust first to kind of say, everybody has an opportunity to screw me (49:41) over at least at least once.

Um, and so, you know, I trust, I trust quickly, but I, you know, I, I (49:47) give, I give trust and get trust pretty quickly. So, uh, that kind of flows right into this podcast (49:53) as well. So that’s a great lesson.

Thanks. Well, thanks for being here. This has been, uh, our (49:59) first named episode where we’re going to call it from, from bikes to buildings with, uh, with Ron (50:03) Thomas.

So, so thanks Ron. And, uh, you’re an interesting guy and I appreciate your, (50:07) your being part of this. Thanks for having me on.

It’s a pleasure. Appreciate it.