Episode 07

(0:00) Welcome to the BLTNT podcast. I’m your host, Matt Loria, serving up real stories of business, (0:05) life, technology, and transformations. You’ll hear from interesting people about big changes (0:09) from career shifts to life-altering decisions and the innovations that help make it all happen. 

(0:14) It’s about sharing those light bulb moments, pivot points, challenges overcome, and the journeys (0:19) that inspire us to think differently. If you’re on the lookout for insights to propel you forward, (0:23) stories that resonate, or just a bit of inspiration on your next BLTNT move, (0:27) you’re in the right place. Let’s dig in. 

All right, welcome to another episode of the (0:43) BLTNT podcast, where we’re bringing you business, life, technology, and transformation stories from (0:48) interesting people that I get to meet in my journeys. And I’m sitting here with Bruce Smith, (0:52) the CEO of Detroit Manufacturing Systems, and Tom Schwartz, the Chief Technology Officer. (0:59) Hey, guys. 

Hi. Good morning. Thanks for having us. 

(1:02) Tom, you want to do your intro song? The other day, I was chilling in Kentucky, (1:08) fried chicken, just minding my business, eating food and finger licking. We’ll stop. (1:14) That’s perfect. 

So just to set the tone for today, that’s where we’re starting. Bruce actually is (1:21) representing my alma mater today, rocking the De La Salle golf shirt. So thank you, Bruce. 

(1:27) Well, thank you. It was a gift. As soon as I walked in, he got off on a good foot. 

(1:31) You get to take it home, too. All right. Oh, you don’t want it back? (1:34) That’s fine. 

I can take it back. I think you’re disease and drug free, right? (1:39) I am. But since you offered, I’ll keep it. 

Okay. Yeah, no problem. No problem. 

So guys, (1:47) can you tell me a little bit about Detroit Manufacturing Systems so we can share that (1:51) with the folks who maybe don’t know too much about you guys? Sure. Detroit Manufacturing Systems (1:58) started in 2012. It was a joint venture between Andra Rush and Forcia at the time, (2:05) now they go by the name of Forvia. 

And it was principally to do instrument panel and micro (2:12) pits, which is a scaled down version of a full instrument panel assembly. And it expanded over (2:18) the years into being backward, vertically integrated into injection molding with press (2:24) sizes to go up to 2,500 tons. And then the product line expanded into center consoles. 

(2:31) And now we’ve started to get into some non-automotive products as well. I purchased (2:37) Andra’s shares in 2018. And then last year in 2023, I bought out my partner Forvia. 

And so (2:46) as of today, I’m 100% owner of predominantly a tier one automotive assembly company. (2:52) Congratulations on that purchase. Well, thank you. 

Thank you. Thank you. And Tom, (2:58) you’re more recent to the organization, correct? Yeah, I’ve been in the auto industry for about (3:03) 27 years, but I joined DMS about three and a half years ago as a director of engineering, (3:10) did that for about three years. 

And then we decided there was a need for a chief technology (3:16) officer about seven months ago or so. Bruce and I had been talking about it for about nine months, (3:21) and we created this role and been in this role since. Great. 

Great. We had a little conversation (3:27) kind of about the chief technology officer role versus the chief information officer role and (3:31) why that was so important to you guys. You want to elaborate on that a little bit? (3:35) Yeah, I think with the CIO role, you know, we did have a little bit of dialogue with it. 

And (3:41) see, the IT does still roll up through me. But the emphasis is more on the product development (3:48) and innovation. And we really wanted to, you know, make it more of a technology versus (3:55) IT. 

We’ve been working with IT and doing a lot of internet of things and that for years. (4:03) But in our transformation, we’re looking to go into more AI, data driven company, (4:09) etc. So we went with the role of the CTO. 

And here we are. Great. Yeah, we see that a lot. 

And (4:16) we work a lot with mid market organizations similar to yours. And it seems as though,(4:23) if you’re not, if you’re not drafting towards AI and data, as your main core internal technology (4:32) department, you’re really going to lag behind, right. And so we’re seeing a lot of forward (4:36) thinking companies like yours, you know, they’re doing more of that outsourcing of the infrastructure (4:40) and the security. 

And they’re bringing more of that data driven piece in house, because you’re (4:45) the only guy who’s going to know the most about what drives your company and where opportunities (4:50) are to really drive value there. Yeah, we we’ve started doing in fact, using Oxium to help us (4:57) with cybersecurity. And we know that there’s a lot of companies out there that can help out in those (5:02) that arena. 

But as far as innovation and AI and the creations of where we can utilize AI is, (5:09) was where we want to focus more. And then he likes to call micing everything up for us. So (5:16) some might say internet of things, but as far as putting, putting any sort of sensors (5:23) on equipment, so we can see what’s happening on a, you know, any second of the day, both internal (5:29) and external. 

So we, and then we’ve been we’ve done a pretty good job of doing that thus far, (5:35) but we’ve got further to go. And then more specifically, we’ve got a lot of that data. (5:40) And now we want to start doing analysis of it, we just created a new role, a senior manager of (5:47) data, data analytics, that’s now reporting up through me. 

And to do just that to focus on how (5:53) what we’re seeing out of our data and adjusting accordingly. So, and Bruce, we call that money (5:59) ball for business, right? Okay, we’ve seen the movie Moneyball know about, you know, (6:04) saber metrics and what it did for baseball, what analytics have done for sports in general, (6:09) similar concepts, we try to simplify it so people can grasp, oh, I get what you’re trying to do. (6:14) And so it’s in a similar vein there. 

I’d like to borrow that micing everything up (6:19) term from me. I love it. Because everything, anything that has a production or data component (6:25) to it can be analyzed and can be aggregated and brought into those systems to better understand (6:31) what the heck is going on. 

And you can make real time decisions. Yeah, absolutely. (6:39) Might have been this one here. 

(6:45) Got it? Yeah. (6:48) We’ll just clip that we’ll just clip that little part. (6:50) All right. 

So, so Bruce, kind of a unique thought, I guess, is coming from from you, (7:00) a unique perspective that I’m seeing that you’ve you’ve kind of brought to the table here is to (7:04) take somebody out of engineering, to move them into that. So really, somebody who understands(7:08) your business, probably on a really nuts and bolts level all the way up to the 50,000 foot(7:14) foot level. So can you talk about why you chose somebody internally to do that versus, you know, (7:20) maybe doing a search externally and, and finding that chief technology officer? (7:24) Yeah, there are there are a couple of reasons that were compelling for me. 

(7:28) One is always coined the phrase, it’s pretty easy for me to find people to do (7:33) what we want to do. But it’s harder for me to find people who can do that and believe in what (7:39) we believe in. And so we think our culture is pretty special, both aspirationally and, you know, (7:46) in reality, what we’re doing and how we treat one another and how we think that gets the best (7:50) for the organization and for everybody. 

And so having someone internally, who understands, (7:56) appreciates, reinforces and models our culture was important. And Tom’s been outstanding in that (8:02) regard, since he’s arrived at DMS. Secondly, is to your point of he knows our business. 

And so (8:11) I was willing to make the bet that I’d rather have someone who knows our business and can learn (8:16) these other things because they really are in their embryonic stage. And so along those lines, (8:22) Tom took a course at MIT. How many weeks was that course? (8:25) About eight weeks. 

(8:25) About eight weeks. And so he said, look, you understand the business, go out and find some (8:30) coursework where you have an opportunity to learn everything that’s happening with machine learning, (8:35) artificial intelligence, et cetera, et cetera, and put ourselves in a position so that we’ll (8:40) continue to be a learning organization and we’ll figure it out as we go. And then thirdly, (8:45) it was his enthusiasm around the role. 

You know, Tom said in his opening statements that we decided (8:51) we needed a CTO role. That’s mostly true. He decided we needed a CTO role, outlined it and (8:59) said, and by the way, I think I’d be really good at it. 

And when you have someone who has the (9:03) confidence to raise their hand and say, I think this organization is missing this role. I think (9:09) I can do it well. And here are the reasons why. 

And they were all credible reasons. I went, why? (9:15) I’d be crazy to bet on somebody else. Let’s place a safe bet and let’s roll with Tom. 

(9:21) That’s great. What do they say? Gets it, wants it, and has the capability to do it. (9:27) DWC. 

(9:27) There you are. And I think I quoted almost every episode as Patrick Lencioni’s ideal team player. (9:34) He’s humble, hungry, and smart. 

And so I’m assuming that he checks those boxes. (9:38) Yes, yes, and yes. (9:40) And confident enough to bust out a rap anywhere. 

(9:45) That’s right. Back to you, Tom. (9:48) So at MIT during the rap course, what other beast did you pick up? (9:55) Yeah, so maybe a little biggie. 

(9:59) No, it was focused on business and artificial intelligence and where we can utilize it. And(10:06) you had one of the two options. You could create a business if maybe you were right out of college (10:10) or continue your education with it. 

And you didn’t have a business you’re working for. But (10:14) of course, within DMS, I focused on that and where we can use AI and throughout different (10:22) aspects in different departments. And so that was the main focus on it. 

(10:25) Okay, great. Great. Tom, you said 27 years in the automotive business. 

Where were you before (10:36) DMS? What were you doing? (10:38) I started my career, I went for electrical engineering, focused in on digital and PLCs. (10:44) Thought I was going to go into controls right away. Almost took a job with a company at the (10:48) time called AOK. 

I’m not sure if they’re even still around with us. But then ABB company out (10:55) of Auburn Hills, one of their divisions is robotics, offered me a position. And I hadn’t done (11:00) robotics in university. 

So I wanted to get into it. So I took a job with ABB, worked for them for (11:09) about three years. And I was under the GM blanket for about two and a half years. 

They had the GMT (11:14) 800 program, which is their truck in Fort Wayne, Janesville, Arlington, Texas, Oshawa, etc. (11:22) One of their biggest platforms. So they’re launching, I think there was a close to 2000 (11:27) different ABB, just robots in their body shop. 

And I would go to their facilities and program (11:33) the robots for them. Enjoyed it tremendously, but did want to get back into controls. Ford (11:42) Utica. 

I went there. I was a controls engineer for a couple of years. I ended up becoming a (11:48) manager after a couple of years and was with, they spun off to Visteon and was with them for(11:54) about six years. 

And then Ford created an LLC called ACH. And they asked for me to come to (12:02) corporate office with them. And they had 18 facilities that were Visteon that they took back (12:07) and wanted to make sure that they were successful one way or another. 

And they, we had the 18 plants (12:13) we were either closing or selling. And PMS came out of that ACH group. The plant in Saline. 

Yes. (12:21) Okay. Was spun off to Forvia. 

As part of that arrangement, Forvia agreed to do the joint (12:25) venture with Andra Rush. And who is Andra Rush? Andra Rush is an entrepreneur who first got (12:32) started in the trucking industry. You may have seen the Rush Trucking Company. 

Oh, yeah. Years ago. (12:37) And then she had, still has Dakota, which is an assembler. 

I think that joint venture may be with (12:43) Magna. I’m not sure who her partner is. And then she had DMS. 

Okay. She sold DMS and has since (12:50) either sold or closed Rush Trucking. But Andra’s a Detroit legend in terms of being an (12:57) entrepreneur. 

She’s done really well. Oh, great. And how did you connect with her? Because she started (13:04) this with, in that joint venture in 2012, but then you bought it out, you bought her position (13:09) out in 2018. 

Where did you come to meet her, come to be a part of the whole mix? When she approached(13:15) her partner and Ford about selling her interest, they started looking for a replacement. And the (13:21) people at Ford that she knew, knew me. I didn’t know Andra directly. 

I knew about her, but I (13:26) didn’t know her. And then at Forvia, their president of North America Interiors is someone I had worked (13:33) with in the past as well, or knew. I hadn’t worked with him. 

I’ve known him for years. When the three (13:38) of them got together, two folks from Ford and him, my name popped up and they said, yeah, let’s, (13:44) let’s give him a call and see if he’s interested. The rest is history. 

Great. So, so where were you (13:48) then? Let’s back up a little bit. Where were you before? Where were you in the, before the whole (13:54) DMS? And when they contacted me in 2017, I was two years into my first entrepreneurial venture. 

(14:01) I was the majority owner of a BTM company up in Marysville. Okay. What did BTM do?(14:07) A sheet metal fabricator that built production equipment to help fabricate sheet metal. 

(14:13) And their claim to fame is their clenching tools, dyes and tools that will help metal (14:19) form against itself so that it clenches and in essence replaces a rivet. Okay. Like a, (14:26) just like a crimp might do on a wire or something like that. 

Very similar to a crimp. Okay. Interesting. 

(14:31) Interesting. And so then, um, that’s how you got to know these folks. And then, uh, 2017,(14:36) they called you up. 

What, what happened with BTM? Did you sell that? Yeah, I sold my interest in (14:40) BTM to my partner. I started that with a, uh, a guy that I went to business school with. And so (14:45) when I left there, I sold my shares to him and over to DMS, I came. 

The rest is history. Yeah. (14:52) Where did you go to business school? Uh, Harvard business school, Boston. 

(14:55) Little place called Harvard. So down the street from MIT. So he got really close. 

(15:01) I can always try. I went to Oakland university. So, so, so not, uh, not too far down the road. 

(15:10) Um, so, um, you know, obviously just, just watching you guys, I’ve not, I’ve actually (15:16) not met Tom in person. I’ve had the opportunity to meet you in person, just watching your (15:22) obviously you guys get along obviously very natural. Um, I know, um, Scott says like, (15:28) who’s your former CFO and now what is his role? He’s our chief commercial officer. 

So he has all (15:32) sales and strategy and our purchasing teams. Okay. So I’ve gotten to see you really take this, (15:38) uh, this promote with from within and move from within and do kind of some, sometimes maybe what (15:42) seems unorthodox to others of, Hey, how do you take a CFO and put them into a sales role? Right. 

(15:48) Or how do you take an engineer and put them into a CTO role? There’s obviously something (15:52) unique going on in the culture over there. Ever. I mean, Scott talks about it all the time. 

(15:57) Sometimes we have to, we have to, we’ve heard enough. We know it’s awesome over there.(16:03) Right. 

Right. So, so let’s, let’s talk about that because, um, obviously there’s something (16:09) special going on. You’re, you’re not just, uh, you’re not just believing your own hype. 

(16:13) There’s something special going on there. So let’s, let’s talk about it. (16:16) Or we’re a cult and we’re all drunk on our own wine. 

That’s fine too. That’s fine too. (16:21) You’ve got 1500 people who have joined, so you’re doing pretty well as a cult. 

I think. (16:25) Yeah, no doubt. Uh, well, yeah, I think we are a little bit, uh, unorthodox. 

Um, but it’s sad to (16:33) even put it under that definition because at the root of what we’re doing is, uh, is the proven (16:38) science of being servant leaders and, uh, removing what I’ll call immediate self-interest (16:47) and supplanting it with, how do I help the people around me be, uh, as we say internally, the best, (16:53) boldest, and most authentic versions of themselves. And there is no one best version, (16:58) right? Sometimes, uh, you know, if I, if I hand you a newborn baby, there’s a different best (17:04) version of you then than if I put you into a NASCAR race, right? There are different versions. (17:10) Sometimes you’re aggressive, sometimes you’re protective. 

Um, and so being whatever that best (17:14) version of you, uh, is in the moment. And, uh, you’re deliberately focused on, uh, helping (17:23) others. You’re others focused. 

And I believe at the end of that process, we all have an opportunity (17:28) to rise to higher heights together. Um, if we, if we feed each other as opposed to selfishly, (17:34) just trying to feed ourselves. Sure. 

I heard you, um, uh, in another, um, conversational (17:40) interview that you did with, uh, with Mark Lee, um, talking about how, um, brothers and sisters (17:47) fight, or maybe it was Scott in that interview. I’m not sure which one of you guys was saying it, (17:51) but, um, um, you know, kind of talking about having that level of comfort within the organization (17:57) that even allows you then to fight. Right. 

So, so how we fight with our siblings, (18:01) it comes from a place of, well, they can’t really leave us. They can’t really break up with us. (18:05) Right. 

They know I love them. Right. Yep. 

Exactly. So we fight harder with them than maybe we do our (18:09) friends. So how’s that work out in the, in the spirited discussions that maybe occur, uh, in a (18:15) DMS? Yeah, I think, uh, when the environment is really safe, conflict is frequent. 

Uh, if you (18:23) think about most organizations and we’ve worked in them, uh, boy, you didn’t speak up on the edge (18:30) or out of turn or say anything that was contrary to what you knew the boss wanted because, uh, (18:36) being contrarian was, uh, was a recipe for not being successful. And our belief is we can’t (18:42) manage secrets, uh, but we can manage the truth. And so let’s put the truth on the table, be (18:48) nonjudgmental about it. 

Be honest with ourselves about where we were doing well, where we’re not (18:54) doing well. And Jack Welch had a saying when he ran GE that said, let’s not sponsor ideas based (19:00) on the altitude of the originator. Let’s sponsor ideas based on the merit of the, the idea. 

(19:06) The meritocracy, right? Yeah. Because the marketplace doesn’t care whether the idea(19:10) came from him or me or you, the marketplace kills bad ideas. So we need to have a process internally (19:17) that kills bad ideas and sponsors, good ideas. 

And it’s not, you know, that political alignment (19:22) we’ve seen in organizations. Hey, we’re going into the meeting. You support me and I’ll support you. 

(19:27) Right. Your buddy says something stupid, but now you’re committed to supporting it.(19:32) I’m with you, buddy. 

And so, uh, just having the ability to not have a bunch of political (19:42) pollution and not have a culture that’s fear ridden, still gotta have accountability, (19:48) but it’s not fear based. We’re not embarrassing one another. Uh, it’s, uh, the analogy I make (19:55) is it’s like, you ever see the show battle bots where you put those bots in the arena and that’s (20:02) the idea competition, right? Is my bot better than yours? And it’s fierce in there, but around (20:08) the table, we’re having a blast, man. 

I blew your bot up, dude. Your idea wasn’t the best one (20:14) this time. I always loved the one with the circular saw blade. 

And so, um, when you think about it, (20:24) what other process is superior to that? There really isn’t one because you get the best of both (20:30) worlds. You get trust and a relationship where there’s mutual respect, but you also get tenacity (20:38) and, uh, you know, iron sharpens iron. Let’s, let’s go at it, but we’re doing it in the spirit (20:43) of making us better, not I win, you lose. 

It’s we win. No zero-sum games. No zero-sum games, (20:49) right? We win because we got the best idea of our process. 

And today it was your idea (20:53) that got sponsored, but no guarantees yours is going to get sponsored next week. Yeah. We’ve (20:58) got a statement around here. 

The best ideas win. It doesn’t matter who’s right. It matters what’s (21:01) right. 

It’s exactly right. So I don’t know if you want to add anything to that. I mean, (21:05) no, I, I would, I’ll circle back a little bit to your questions about, you know, putting Scott (21:10) into that role, putting me into that role. 

You know, I’ll go back to the, uh, since I started (21:13) off with the music there, it’s, uh, it’s like trying to put a musician in a genre, you know, (21:19) they don’t typically like to be put in a genre. They just want to create good music and have (21:22) people enjoy it. I’d, I’d say it’s the same mentality here. 

It’s the, you know, not necessarily (21:28) identifying by a title of exactly what that role is, but creating a business that we know what the (21:33) goal is. And it becomes a much more, uh, maybe not a defined like other businesses, but we (21:41) ultimately have the right goal mindset. Yeah. 

You’re climbing the mountain together. You know, (21:46) where the peak is, you know, where you’re going. Sometimes Bruce is going to carry the bags. 

You’re (21:50) going to lead the way. Sometimes you’re going to carry the bags. Bruce is going to lead the way. 

(21:53) And you know, somebody is going to cook one night and, and, uh, clean the next or whatever. So (21:58) yeah, he likes to call it dribbling left. You know, if you’re right-handed, you’re, you know, (22:01) kind of forcing us to dribble left. 

And, and it, and it opens up, uh, other avenues for other (22:06) people to grow, you know, if you, uh, are always in the engineering world or whatever, but so (22:12) creating this has created other job opportunities and, uh, it helps us to advance and in other (22:17) areas that we hadn’t been advanced in the past. I know you’re a Tom Peters fan, uh, um, culture (22:24) eats, uh, culture strategy for breakfast. And, uh, um, what about kind of the whole who moved my (22:30) cheese, uh, sort of, uh, uh, theory to write the, this whole, be prepared to change. 

You know, (22:35) I heard a doctor say, you know, one of the best advices he has for people in their forties and (22:39) fifties is start brushing your teeth, brushing your teeth with your, with your other hand, (22:43) right? Because there’s going to have some things that happen in your life where you’re going to (22:46) have to make, make some right. It’s not going to be there. You better be ready to go on. 

Exactly. (22:51) So it seems like that’s what you guys have done. Um, you know, I mean, now all of a sudden technology (22:57) can speak into in a, in a very, um, respected, logical, um, relevant way. 

You can speak into (23:05) engineering, right? When you’re on the shop floor, they have to listen. You’re not, you’re not just (23:09) some tech guy who’s been, you know, playing with bits and bytes his whole life. You’ve been, (23:13) you’ve been doing what they’re doing. 

Right. Yeah. And, you know, with the creation of AI and some (23:19) of the things that we’re looking at doing with it, um, you know, we, we try to do predictive (23:24) maintenance. 

Um, we’ve got, um, in, in relative to the it and engineering, we’ve got manufacturing (23:32) execution systems, uh, that are kind of in between the it and engineering. Um, but we’re, (23:40) we’re creating a culture where it’s not always call it that, you know, it, we’re not in the day (23:45) where you used to have to download drivers to connect a printer, you know, and now it’s plug(23:49) and play. Uh, so there’s a lot more, um, special teams that can do things like, you know, we have (23:55) an abundance of engineering changes that happen. 

You can imagine instrument panels, F-150, (24:00) how many different versions, software versions that comes out, you know, in the past, historically, (24:05) if you had a different version, you know, version A went to B, it changed a bar code. That means (24:10) IT and all this, but you know, there’s, there’s manufacturing engineers, there’s engineering, (24:15) industrial engineers that put the work construction and things like that. So developing out more of, (24:19) um, um, centralized engineering and focus mindset of doing some of those things that used to always (24:26) be in the IT world and taking some of that onus off of that has been part of the strategy as well. 

(24:32) And realizing that, you know, to Tom’s point, the lines of demarcation are beginning to get(24:37) blurred, right? Used to be a mechanical engineer did this, an electrical engineer did this,(24:41) a controls engineer did that, your IT team did that. And today we have an issue on the shop(24:46) floor. It’s not always clear who you should call. 

So having people who are collaborative, (24:51) understand boundaryless behavior and have mental agility, uh, is important because I may call on (24:58) you if I’m a production supervisor and you got to quickly do triage around, okay, this, I can help, (25:04) but I can only help so far. I need to call this other guy to come in and help do the rest because (25:09) problem identification is a lot more difficult today than it’s ever been. And we need to embrace (25:14) that and make sure we’ve got the backdrop of talent that’s readily available to pass the (25:19) baton when it needs to be passed or to collaborate when they need to collaborate to go address the (25:24) issue. 

That’s great. Yeah. You know that it’s, you’re speaking, you’re speaking our language (25:28) here. 

We, we actually kept seeing those lines get blurred in our own company between the three (25:33) different pillars of services that we offer. And we created a whole group called dynamic services.(25:39) So anything that doesn’t fit in a bucket, that’s the group. 

And we kind of likened it in a way (25:44) to the hospital model, right? So, um, you know, you look at even, we can even see this and I know (25:50) you guys do some personality profiling and things of that nature. We do, we do too. And there’s a, (25:55) there’s a drive out there that, that we watch and we go, Oh, okay. 

That person is, is a qualified (26:01) technologist, but they have this certain drive. You look at the same sort of spectrum for doctors. (26:07) Look at your ER doc, right? Your ER doc is a, is a, an adrenaline junkie. 

Typically, (26:13) right. Loves to bounce around from different things, loves excitement, can handle the highs, (26:17) can handle the lows. Um, and then you look at your, your, your orthopedic people, right? It’s like, (26:23) I have office hours on Monday and Friday. 

I do surgeries Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, (26:28) very regimented, very much procedurally this before this, and then, uh, then that. And, (26:33) um, so I love what you guys are talking about here because the lines, the lines are blurred (26:37) and who knows, does AI sit in marketing? Does AI sit in revenue operations? Does AI sit in (26:42) engineering? Yes. All of them. 

Right. So that’s a, I love how you guys articulate this stuff. Um, (26:50) you’re doing a great job with this and, uh, I’m, I’m very impressed. 

And I think, uh, (26:54) I think there’s gonna be business books written about you someday. We’ll start with a wrap in (26:59) Yeah. It’ll be, it’ll be KFC related, I think from, from Tom’s, uh, uh, uh, title there, (27:07) title song, I should say. 

Um, so let’s talk about, um, just kind of background where you grew up, (27:12) um, and what you did, uh, um, as a kid. Uh, let’s let people get to know you guys on that level. (27:20) Um, Tom, you said, uh, you grew up in a kind of Harbor beach area in the middle of Michigan. 

(27:25) Yeah. My parents divorced when I was really young. So I, there was a little bit of a shared(27:29) service as we’ll say. 

That’s a great way to put it. You were using managed services (27:35) to do the parenting. I had the same scenario. 

I just wondered if it was, no, you take him, (27:41) no, you take him. You love him more than I do. So, um, but yeah, primarily, I, you know, (27:48) I grew up in Harbor beach, Michigan. 

Uh, we, uh, when I was about 12, we had our, we were, (27:53) we had our first horse and then we, we ended up having about 15 to 20 horses, um, uh, some (28:00) thoroughbred quarter horses, Appaloosas, even a Clydesdale. Um, it was all, you know, pleasure, (28:06) but we had about 45 acres, did some, you know, failing the hay and all that good stuff that goes (28:10) along with farming. But we even got into some poultry. 

We had, uh, uh, geese, guineans, peacocks, (28:16) ducks, you name it. And I was responsible for all of these. And one summer we even went and, (28:21) um, we went to Iowa and my dad went crazy and bought more animals and cows and calves. 

And, (28:27) and we attempted to do that for a bit. And, uh, again, none of it was for, it was all for pleasure (28:34) and there was nothing that was put on the table from any of this, but, so it was fun, but it was (28:38) a lot of work for me, but it, uh, it taught a good, good work ethics. I’ve always thought that (28:43) if, uh, you can hire somebody that grew up on the farm, they know that you don’t miss a day of work. 

(28:48) Those animals need, you know, they need to be fed every day. So, uh, there are no sick days (28:53) when you got the farm, there might be somebody who can tag relief, but ultimately the work’s (28:57) got to get done. So we also find from, from folks that grew up in, in farming environment is that (29:02) they’ve got that kind of can do attitude. 

They can cobble something together too, for a temporary (29:06) solution. Cause you know, the hardware store wasn’t always right around the corner, you know, (29:10) when you’re on the farm and sometimes you have to, you have to make something work for the rest of (29:14) the day before you fix it perfectly. You see that for yourself playing out? Yeah. 

Yeah. I, um, I, (29:21) you know, I like to take that work ethics and carry it through, uh, through today. And, uh, (29:26) my dad owned a restaurant during that time too. 

So we had, uh, even more duties to do go along (29:31) with that. I, I attempted to be a dishwasher when I was, uh, 12. My, my grandma let me do that for, (29:38) and I didn’t, and I went back to my dad about two weeks later. 

I was like, I don’t think I want to (29:41) do this anymore. He says, well, you better tell, you better tell your grandma. Cause she was part (29:47) of the restaurant too. 

So I had to go in there with my head low and say, grandma, I quit. I don’t (30:00) know how much of a hand I really was in the, in that sector of the business anyway. I was probably (30:06) breaking more dishes. 

That’s great. And Bruce, um, what about you? Uh, like Tom, my folks got (30:15) divorced when I was young, they were three years old. Uh, my dad was a career military guy. 

Uh, (30:20) so he bounced around quite a bit. Uh, they both grew up in a small area south of Pittsburgh, (30:26) Pennsylvania. And so when they got divorced, my mother moved back to Pennsylvania. 

(30:31) And when I got to third grade, I said to my mom, I don’t want to grow up and not know my(30:35) dad. Can I live with him during even grades? And I’ll come back and stay with you on odd grades. (30:40) So essentially from fourth grade on every other year I was with mom or dad. 

And so when I was (30:46) back in Pennsylvania, where I spent most of my time, uh, I would call that my hometown, (30:51) Monongahela, Pennsylvania, steel mill town, industrial place, but still in a green and (30:55) pleasant Valley with a river that flowed through it. So you grew up near lakes where I grew up near (31:00) a river. And, um, so I had roots in that regard. 

Uh, but my dad having being transferred into (31:07) military, uh, I did eighth grade and, uh, most of the 10th grade in Woodbridge, Virginia, (31:15) uh, a good part of 10th grade in, uh, Columbus, Georgia, when he was at Fort Benning, (31:21) um, the army put him through college. So when I was in fourth grade, we were in state college, (31:25) Pennsylvania. So I bounced around quite a bit, which gave me wings. 

So I, I felt like I had this (31:30) good combination of roots and wings, uh, the stability and familiarity of being in the same (31:35) neighborhood off and on, but also the excitement of exploring new places and, and meeting new (31:41) people and figuring out that everywhere I went, people were different, but they were the same. (31:47) And, uh, if you can find ways to quickly connect, um, it’s, it’s easy to create genuine friendships (31:54) that can last a lifetime. That’s great. 

And you came up with this concept yourself in fourth grade. (31:59) Yeah, it was actually towards the end of third grade. Yeah. 

I just, I just kept thinking, (32:04) I don’t want to grow up and not know my dad. So can I get an opportunity to live with him as well? (32:09) That’s that’s what a neat mix, like you said, of the stability and the wings, right? That is, (32:13) that is a great combination, especially, you know, you’re not bouncing back and forth each weekend (32:17) and everything, and you’re not really firmly rooted. You had, you kind of had those roots (32:20) all over the place, all over the place. 

That’s fantastic. Um, this, this whole piece of, um, (32:29) bouncing around like that and making these bonds with people, um, that’s had to have helped you in (32:35) your business life. We heard Anthony, uh, Laverde was on our, was on our show. 

Great guy. Yeah. Good, (32:40) good guy. 

He, um, you know, he was not a Detroit native and we always laughed like he knows more (32:47) people here than, than any of us that grew up here. Yeah. And he moved here around the same(32:52) I came here, uh, 2015 and the number of people he knows is 20 times. 

We’ve had the same period (33:00) of time to network and this guy has just been masterful at it. Yeah. But you have obviously, (33:05) you’ve obviously leveraged that to your, to your advantage and to, to form really strong bonds and (33:10) really strong relationships. 

I mean, I’ve, I’ve not heard a bad thing about you. You know, you (33:15) haven’t asked enough people yet. That’s right. 

You don’t know enough people yet. I’ll ask some (33:20) Anthony’s fans. This episode of the BLTNT podcast is sponsored by Auxium, business IT and (33:27) cybersecurity designed to outsmart chaos. 

Empowered by Juniper Networks, automate your network with (33:32) Juniper Networks and the Myst AI platform, the world’s first AI driven wired and wireless network. (33:40) Let’s talk a little bit about these transformations too. So obviously you, you’ve been a (33:45) transformer kind of your whole career. 

You’ve, you’ve transformed in many different ways, uh, (33:50) as well, even this most recent change here. Um, let’s talk about where you see these (33:56) transformations going, right? Where do you see your industry going? I know you, you’ve, (34:01) you’ve mentioned in other interviews that, uh, you don’t have the crystal ball. Yeah. 

Don’t (34:05) have the crystal ball, but we can’t, uh, but you can’t sit here and not, not planning for the (34:09) future. And obviously you’re, you’re making moves. Yeah. 

Yeah. As we say internally, right? Uh, (34:14) we can ignore AI and all that’s happening, but it’s not going to ignore us. And while we don’t (34:20) have a perfect crystal ball, uh, let’s put ourselves in the position to continue to be (34:25) learners. 

And, um, I was listening to a series, a podcast called acquired, and they were (34:31) interviewing the CEO of, uh, NVIDIA, who had a good analogy where he said, look, you just want (34:37) to be under the apple tree so that when the apple of opportunity does fall, you’ve got a chance to(34:43) grab it. Uh, and so we’re just positioning ourselves under certain apple trees in the (34:48) orchard to go, we think there’s going to be opportunities here and there. And while we can’t(34:53) define it in a exactly prescriptive way, uh, we know we’re in the right area. 

You’re going to (34:59) stay close to it. Let’s just stay close and continue to learn and evolve, be agile. And (35:05) then when the opportunities present themselves, let’s apply them to where it makes sense for us, (35:10) our customers and our employees. 

So we get that triple win, uh, in the, in that process. That’s (35:18) it. Thank you both of you guys today. 

Great. He’s about to get married. Um, I’ve been married for, (35:26) uh, got married in 2008, January 1st. 

So what’s it been now to be, uh, 17 years here soon. (35:33) I have four children, a 16 year old, a 15 year old, 13 year old, and a 10 year old. And, uh, (35:40) my wife is just, I mean, she’s my best friend and she’s the best thing that’s ever happened to (35:44) me. 

And she’s incredibly, incredibly supportive and I’m equally supportive of her. And so as we (35:50) handle our parental duties and, you know, our partnership duties and our professional duties(35:55) and interpersonal stuff, we balance that really, really well because some weeks I’m more of a (36:01) professional than I am a partner and other weeks I’m more of a partner than I am a parent and (36:05) other weeks I’m more of a parent. It moves based on, uh, wants and needs, but we manage it really, (36:11) really well. 

So family life for me is great. Where did you meet her? Uh, here in Michigan, (36:16) here in Michigan in 2002, I think it was. Yeah. 

We started dating in 2006. (36:23) And then married in 2000, 2008, 2008. Yeah. 

Great. Great. And what’s her name? Michelle. 

Michelle. (36:31) Okay. Yeah. 

As far as me, I, uh, I’ve been dating my fiance now for a little over four years. Um, (36:40) she has a 11 year old daughter and a 18 year old son that’s going to Grand Valley State University, (36:46) uh, for supply chain management. Uh, so proud of that. 

Just had his, uh, party last Saturday and (36:52) we, uh, we tied the knot on July 27th. So we’re been having a lot of planning this summer. I turned (37:01) 50 this summer on top of it. 

So there’s been a lot of, uh, a lot of things happening, a lot of (37:05) big year for you guys. Awesome. Um, what do you guys, um, you guys had talked about, I know I’m (37:15) kind of bouncing back around here a little bit. 

Um, you had said something about the next 10 years (37:20) are going to bring more change than the last a hundred years in the automotive sector. Let’s, (37:25) let’s talk about that and get that, get that kind of future look. Yeah. 

You think about all of the, (37:31) the opportunities in the automotive industry, you know, electric vehicles versus the (37:36) historical internal, uh, combustion engine, uh, you know, how much will there be in terms of (37:44) autonomous vehicles, uh, all the AI stuff we’ve talked about and machine learning. And, uh, (37:50) you look at the Chinese coming into the marketplace. Um, you just see so much change, (37:58) uh, that there are really two things we have to be mindful of. 

One is as these shocks happen in (38:05) the marketplace, um, don’t, don’t internalize all of that. And COVID was a good example. COVID, (38:12) the supply chain, uh, in my opinion, I think my leadership team did a marvelous job of going, (38:18) look, the world has had some pretty big blows. 

We don’t need to take that and amplify it through (38:24) our organization and create this unnecessary stress factor on top of what’s already going on. (38:29) I feel like we were good shock absorbers in terms of insulating the organization and really telling (38:35) folks, focus on what we can control and let’s use this opportunity. Our COO Ben Meacham always says, (38:42) never let a good crisis go to waste. 

Sure. And so what are we going to focus on? So at the end of (38:47) this, we come out stronger, better, faster, uh, than before. So one is don’t let those shocks just (38:52) go through your organization. 

And then secondly, be agile, uh, and be prepared because every time (38:59) you have a crisis, there’s going to be an opportunity. Every time there’s change, there’s (39:03) going to be an opportunity. So for us, uh, we’re excited about the next 10 years because we think (39:08) within that chaos, uh, there are going to be winners and losers. 

And a lot of that’s going to (39:12) be predicated upon, um, how much did you panic versus not panic? Uh, how much did you look for (39:19) opportunities versus you were scared. And we’re constantly combing the marketplace, looking for (39:24) the right opportunities that fit our capabilities and where we think we can solve a problem or, (39:28) or add value. And then along the way, you need a little bit of luck, right? Because if, (39:33) if luck doesn’t go your way, then all the plans of mice and men are laid to rest. 

(39:39) Well, another good way to be in luck is to be underneath that apple tree though. So you’re not, (39:45) you’re not off on a, on a soybean farm. You’re, you’re hanging out near the apple tree. 

You know, (39:49) one of the things that, um, uh, as you heard, we mentioned Scott Sislak a number of times, (39:53) obviously, you know, that that’s where my relationship came to then meet you guys. Um, (39:59) Scott has told me that the internal default, uh, response is always one of optimism, right? Uh, at (40:07) your organization. And he said that that was one of the biggest things that he had to learn, you (40:15) know, trained CFO, right? Was how does this guy always look to the optimistic, uh, look when some (40:23) sort of tragedy or opportunity or whatever hits, how did that kind of all, how did that come out (40:29) of you? How did, how did that, or where did that kind of stem from in your maybe personal life, (40:35) business life? What, what formed that to where, you know, Bruce doesn’t freak out. 

(40:40) Yeah, I think some of it’s nature and some of it’s nurture. Um, right. I had, uh, I had parents(40:46) that, uh, you know, as I think about all the things that happened to our family during life(40:50) that happened to most families, right? You got ups and downs and I have parents who never panicked. 

(40:55) Um, there was, uh, uh, also just reading a lot over the years. I can’t remember what book it(41:01) was in, but there’s the, the Stockdale paradox about Admiral Stockdale, who was a POW during (41:06) World War II, I think it was, or the Vietnam War. Um, who said the people who made it out of the (41:12) POW camp were neither pessimistic or completely optimistic. 

They had this duality of, um, of how (41:19) they viewed the world, which is, um, I can see a path that gets me out of this predicament and (41:26) where I survive and there’s life after being a POW. But at the same time, I’m going to be brutally (41:31) honest about my circumstances. And I think we do a good job of doing both of those, right? COVID hit, (41:38) supply chain hit, automotive industry has all these drastic changes that are happening and (41:42) are still coming. 

And we’re brutally honest about the waters can be rough, right? Oh, (41:48) what’s the Shakespeare quote? When the sea was calm, all showed mastership alike and floating. (41:53) Okay. Well, the sea’s not calm. 

We better know how to handle our craft and hope that a bad wave (41:58) doesn’t hit us. So be honest about where you are, but at the same time, articulate a path that (42:03) people can rally around. They’ve got a vision of a better tomorrow, because if we do these things, (42:08) we’ve have a, we have a good chance for success. 

And so I think it’s the nature from home. My (42:14) parents weren’t panickers. Um, and I think it’s also the, the nurture, the learning and seeing (42:19) other leaders and what they’ve done. 

Uh, we have a leadership conference every year where we’ll, (42:24) we’ll do a certain theme. Uh, last year we did the 10 top leadership lessons of Ted Lasso. (42:30) And, and there are things like be comfortable, being uncomfortable and embracing that a couple (42:36) of years ago, we did this, some of the great stories of world war two, where you could see (42:40) some leaders in some pretty dire situations. 

And, uh, who was it? General Zirkoff from the Russia (42:46) and, uh, and Stalingrad when the Germans had them outmatched both in terms of manpower and (42:52) artillery. And he goes, we got to fight close. So hug your enemy, get in closer. 

Otherwise we’re (42:56) going to lose. And you see these people have these brilliant insights where it looks like the odds (43:02) are against you. But if you can identify a path that has some probability of success, people will (43:08) rally around that. 

And so we work hard to do that. That’s great. Yeah. 

And I, yeah, I mean, I’ve, (43:14) I’ve been in the auto industry for 27 years and that’ll just, if you’re not optimistic in it, (43:21) then you’re, it’ll tear you apart. I mean, I’ve, I mean, if you think about some of the (43:26) key milestones, you know, when, uh, it started in 97 and, and everybody was making millions off (43:33) of.coms, right. But then it crashed and then, you know, in, in, in 2000 and, and everybody’s now, (43:38) I was back to being humble and kind, right. 

And then, uh, 2002, 2009, the bankruptcies that (43:45) everything that went on with that, and of course, COVID. And so you see these ebbs and flows and, (43:51) uh, you just know that, you know, electrifications, you know, we thought, you know, (43:55) everybody’s predicted that that’s going to be a much bigger boom than, than we’re seeing there. (44:00) And, but we’re also seeing a lot of startup companies, companies coming out of electrifications (44:04) and, um, and even low speed vehicles. 

There’s a big sector that we believe that’s going to be a (44:09) boom in that for, uh, some of these communities in Florida and Texas, et cetera. So, uh, you just, (44:15) you’ve got to learn to diversify and that’s what we’re doing under Bruce’s leadership of (44:20) understanding that automotive isn’t always going to be prosperous. You know, there’s going to be (44:24) some ebbs and some flows. 

And, uh, and so we got to be able to be willing to adapt and other sectors (44:30) and we’ve, and that’s what we’ve been doing over the last, I’d say about two years now. So. (44:35) Can you guys talk about any of those projects? Um, I mean, without, you know, reaching any (44:39) confidentiality, obviously, but what are, what are some of the areas that you guys are working(44:42) in outside of automotive right now? Yeah. 

We recently landed a contract with an energy company (44:48) that, uh, can either write off an OEMs production line or retrofit an existing vehicle so that it (44:58) electromagnetically or wirelessly charges when it goes across pads that are embedded in the pavement (45:04) or the route that it’s on their product is particularly applicable to vehicles that are (45:10) on a closed loop. So think about, uh, ports like the port of Los Angeles or port of Tacoma, uh, (45:16) or bus routes to where you have, or airports where you have the, uh, the baggage tuggers. (45:22) Uh, so you got to close loop where these vehicles are charging while they’re being utilized. 

(45:28) And it has a lot of benefits for the end user customer in terms of reducing the number of(45:33) assets they have to have. Um, also saving them on power costs because you’re not charging (45:39) at peak rates. And so it’s got embedded logic in it. 

So that knows based upon the rates of (45:44) utility companies at that time, based on the battery charge, how far it’s got to go, (45:49) whether it’s a charge when it’s on a certain pad or not. And so it’s got a lot of advantages (45:53) and we’ve hitched our wagon to their star and they’re starting to really penetrate the marketplace. (45:58) And we built three units for them, the ground unit, the vehicle unit, and the charging station, (46:03) uh, itself. 

Um, we’re also on the precipice of deciding, we’ve got some prototypes, uh, (46:11) that we’re, we’re, uh, we’re, we’re now analyzing, um, and it’s in the low speed or medium speed (46:17) vehicle market. So when you think about the villages in Florida and the golf carts that (46:22) they all have, um, uh, we’ve got a couple of designs we’re looking at and testing to see (46:28) if that’s something we want to build. And we’re doing that with a partner. 

We’re not a design (46:32) house. Uh, we can help a design house design their products better, but we don’t have any (46:36) intellectual property, uh, in terms of that. But as a contract manufacturer, my guess is, (46:42) I say there’s probably a 75% chance that within the next, uh, six months, we’ll start doing some (46:48) initial production runs and putting these low speed vehicles into the marketplace to see how (46:52) they take. 

And, uh, we like our odds there. And then we’re, uh, we’re looking at, um, (47:00) doing, using crowdsourcing to get design ideas from the marketplace that could fit (47:05) our production capabilities and then being able to sell those in the marketplace through, (47:11) for example, but not necessarily them through a medium like, uh, Amazon, right? So we don’t have (47:17) to do the distribution and selling of the products. We just have to identify them through (47:21) crowdsourcing, make sure they fit our production capabilities, and then we can sell them through,(47:27) uh, Amazon and create a revenue stream that way as well. 

So we’re, we’re investigating a number (47:32) of things, and because we are a contract manufacturer, we’re agnostic to the end product (47:37) as long as we know it’s within our capabilities of, uh, our production processes. And do you have (47:42) an R&D sort of group or something like that that actually does that? Or is it everybody kind of (47:46) taking a little, little piece of it? He’s, uh, on all three of them, he’s the technology, Tom is (47:51) the technology lead. Uh, but Scott, who you mentioned earlier on the commercial side, (47:55) works hand in hand, uh, with Tom to identify these opportunities. 

And then once they start (48:01) to get some traction, uh, we’ll engage our production people to go, can you make this? (48:05) And can you make it cost effectively? Uh, we recently bought a 3D printer. Uh, so we’ll be (48:11) able to do a lot of prototypes on that. And we know what the cost per cubic inch of the 3D printer (48:15) is and whether or not it could be applicable for serial production. 

And we need to scale up there (48:20) or whether it needs to transfer to, uh, a more traditional sort of serial production process. (48:27) Yeah. So, you know, what he’s alluding to is basically we’ve always been business to business (48:31) and we’re looking to get business to consumers. 

So, uh, with that, we’ve, uh, we’ve hired a, (48:36) uh, director of product development, um, and, and we’re looking to see how that fits into our (48:42) roadmap on going, um, B to C. And we’re, so we’re in the infancy of doing that, but, uh, (48:49) but there’s some strategy. And as he’d mentioned, we’re agnostic to what the end product is, (48:54) as long as it makes sense. But as he, as he’d mentioned, you know, that we have, um, some high, (49:01) uh, capabilities within 3D printing. 

And we’ve also been creating networks on some things that (49:06) we might not have capacity to do, but we have a good network that can do that for prototypes. And, (49:11) and if it gets up to scale, then maybe, maybe a 3D printer goes to an injection molding process, (49:16) or, uh, maybe we buy the equipment that’s needed to, you know, whether it’s, uh, something for (49:22) stamping or whatever the case may be, but, uh, developing a network to help us out with that(49:27) has been key in that strategy. And so there’s this combination here of, we don’t have to(49:32) necessarily be asset intensive because we can utilize third parties who have assets and(49:37) capabilities that augment ours. 

Um, and the other thing Tom talked about earlier, (49:42) micing up the manufacturing plant, as we start to look to these new products, (49:46) um, how do we mic those up? So you get this second revenue curve associated with the data (49:52) and information that is embedded in, or being provided by products that are now in the field. (49:57) So whether it’s the low speed vehicle or some of these other consumer products, (50:01) um, how do we stay connected to it? Electronically data-wise. (50:05) Through its life cycle. 

Through its life cycle. (50:07) Once it’s even left your plant. That’s correct. 

Because today (50:09) our revenue model ends after we ship, right? And, uh, it doesn’t always have to be that way and it (50:15) won’t always be that way. Yeah, that’s great. Um, let’s take what you, so, so as we’ve kind (50:19) of explained, you guys are about a billion dollar organization. 

Yeah. Um, 1500 people. Um, (50:26) so you’re squarely in the mid market, right? How would you take what you just explained that you (50:30) guys are doing where you’ve applied some funding and some resources to kind of this exploratory (50:36) piece, right? To, to remain relevant, to remain at the forefront of, uh, you know, seeing when (50:41) that next Apple falls. 

Um, how would you recommend that to somebody in the small business? So if (50:46) there’s an entrepreneur or a small business owner watching this program, he might be looking at you (50:52) and go, well, yeah, you’re a billion bucks. You can, you can hire a couple of people and not (50:56) really feel it. What is, what does the small business owner do in this situation? Yeah, (51:00) I would say there, there are two things. 

Everything’s relative, uh, right. And before here, (51:04) I, I owned a BTM company and BTM in terms of revenue at that time was about $20 million a (51:11) year in sales. So in order of magnitude smaller, but even there, there was a percentage of (51:16) our profits that we dedicated towards, uh, let’s look at new machining equipment. 

Let’s look at new (51:22) tooling designs, right? So there’s always a portion of what you have that in my opinion, (51:28) you’d be wise to think about how do I invest it into something that, uh, could have a potential (51:34) payoff. And as we say, you know, amongst ourselves, uh, have, have some appetite for (51:39) failure. I can’t, I can’t ask you for innovation and have zero appetite for failure. 

Those two (51:45) things just don’t go hand in hand, right? We wouldn’t have the light bulb. Otherwise, (51:48) what did Thomas Edison say when the reporter said, how do you feel about the fact that you (51:52) failed 2000 times? And he goes, my, my friend, inventing a light bulb was a 2000 step process, (51:59) right? And so you have to have those failures before you can get to success. So I have some (52:03) appetite for failure, but you don’t want to be, you want to take calculated, uh, uh, risk. 

(52:09) So that’s one. The second thing, which I think is the most precious, uh, commodity that we have (52:15) is where do you put your attention? And I didn’t use the word time, uh, where, (52:22) because I think, uh, uh, a more valuable subset of time is your attention. And are you focused on(52:29) the things that you’re comfortable doing, or do you spend some portion of your life focusing on (52:35) things that make you uncomfortable, but have the opportunity to give you a 10 X payback as (52:40) opposed to a two X payback, right? And so we’re re our staff, we’re reading a book called 10 X is (52:45) easier than two X. And really what the book talks about is be deliberate about where you spend your (52:51) time and delegate things, uh, that don’t necessarily give you the greatest payback. 

So for example, (52:58) I came up through the shop floor, I’m a production guy. That’s where I’m comfortable, but it’s not (53:03) necessarily where I should be spending the majority of my time just because I’m comfortable (53:08) there. And I want to be involved in those details. 

I should be focused on things that are going to (53:13) transform the company and help us be something better and different, uh, 10 years from now, (53:19) then worried about did that last shipment get out, right? There’s a, it’s a, while I’ve got to be (53:25) concerned with that, as I say to my team, I’m not here to work, run the company. Well, I’m here to (53:29) make sure the company is well run while I work on some futuristic things that continue to evolve (53:35) who we are and help us become better and bigger and stronger. And you’ve got a leadership team (53:39) that totally understands that and are capable, go back to the GWC. 

They get it. They want it. (53:44) And they’re capable, but I’m encouraging them. 

What are the 20% of the items that are on your (53:49) list that you should be focused on and have someone else focus on the other 80% because (53:54) a hundred percent of it has to get done, but you don’t have to do a hundred percent of it. I don’t (53:58) have to do a hundred percent of it. So be very deliberate about where you spend your time and (54:03) more importantly, where you put your attention. 

Yeah. That attention. I think what I wrote it (54:07) down. 

I think I’ve got it. It was, it was energy, energy flows where attention goes. Is that, is (54:11) that the, uh, I love this statement. 

Um, I was in a, um, an AI, a couple of different AI, uh, (54:18) seminars, uh, recently. And the, one of the fellows who, who put it, put one on for us is a (54:23) guy named Todd Brooke. And he said that his recommendation to every business leader, every, (54:28) every person really is to invest one hour a week in chat, pick, pick, pick one of the, pick one of (54:35) the, uh, AI models, right. 

Chat GPT or copilot or something, spend an hour a week in it because (54:41) every week you’re going to, you’re going to learn how to take one small task of yours and automate (54:46) it. Um, and by the end of the year, you know, you’ve got 52 hours now of, uh, of training in (54:52) that. So, um, and it, it is so ever evolving that like I’ve noticed that, that GPTs that I’ve built (55:00) two weeks ago are irrelevant because now they’re built into chat GPT. 

And if I’m not playing with (55:06) it this morning and, uh, it’s a lot better than it was when I use it about a month ago, (55:11) every week, but I use it a month ago and I went, wow, this thing has evolved. (55:15) Yeah. And if you, but if you would have sat, sat static and said, okay, hey, this is what it does (55:20) and not played with it, you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t know. 

So you have to be, I love it (55:24) underneath the apple tree. Um, well, great. Um, this has been, uh, uh, a great time with you guys. 

(55:34) Is there, is there anything that you want to ask me or is there anything else that you guys want (55:38) to make sure that we cover? What, what made you start this podcast? What got you into this? (55:43) Um, so I was sitting at the, uh, at the Detroit athletic club at lunch and I was looking at the (55:50) guy across from me and I’m starting to daydream and I’m going, I am so lucky this is my job. I (55:56) get to sit here and meet with interesting people who have accomplished so many things in their (56:01) life and in their career. And they’re telling me things like, and it might be something about (56:07) their kids or it might be something about their personal life, or maybe it’s something about (56:10) business and any, any of these different, different pieces that they’re telling me. 

(56:14) And I’m going, nobody else gets to hear that. I get to hear that. So I said, what if I can just go (56:20) amplify this and, and, and spread the word? Because usually what would happen is, is let’s (56:24) say Tom and I, we meet for lunch somewhere. 

We talk, I say, Oh, you know, you should, (56:29) you should meet my friend Bruce. Right. And then afterwards I send a combo text and I say, Hey, Tom, (56:34) meet Bruce, two good people. 

Hopefully you guys take it from here, have at it onwards and upwards. (56:37) Like, I mean, I literally have like a script that I, because I do it all the time. I love (56:41) connecting people. 

And I’m like, you know, that that’s only one connection that I get to make. (56:45) And I’m still going to make it more scalable. Yeah. 

I’m going to make it scalable. Right. (56:49) And so, you know, I had to do a little bit of soul searching and go, okay, is how many people (56:52) are doing these podcasts? A lot of people are doing these podcasts, but I figured if I double (56:58) down, right, build the studio, do it right. 

Commit to doing it. Go teach myself a little bit about (57:03) what to do. Go seek out some people who have done it and have been successful with it. 

And I don’t (57:08) have the outcome of that. I’m going to be the next Joe Rogan, right? The outcome is, is that if I make (57:13) one extra connection for each person that I interview, job’s done. Guaranteed that the world (57:20) will, the world, my world will get better as their world gets better. 

So, so that’s why I did it. (57:26) And that does tell us to the question I wanted to ask, because you’ve interviewed so many people, (57:32) you’ve had so many lunches, what common themes have you seen or what common lessons or messages (57:38) have you heard that you would say, if I could put it all in a crucible and distill it down, (57:44) here are some universal truths. Wow. 

That’s a big one. I mean, the first one that’s coming to mind (57:50) is, is that nothing happens until you let the guard down. Right. 

Vulnerability. Vulnerability. (57:56) That’s the grenade round stuff. 

So I don’t know if it’s, you know, if it’s, we walk in a room and I (58:00) get you to swear, right? I get comfortable enough to say, you know, if, if, if there’s some level of (58:08) comfort that comes in the conversation, in the interaction, you might actually just open up enough (58:15) to give me one good nugget to really get to know you. Right. So it’s, it’s that nothing good really (58:22) happens until the facade is dropped. 

And I’ll tell you this, a lot of that came from getting to know (58:29) Paul Glantz, who’s the CEO or chairman of Imagine. Imagine. Yeah. 

Within the first, I met Paul (58:36) through a, through a friend of mine, we were at their jewelry store was opening down downstairs (58:39) from the, in the, in the Birmingham location, the Lucitos. And Fran Lucito said, Hey, you need to (58:45) meet Paul. I said, okay. 

So Paul’s wearing a football jersey. Cause he had just come from a (58:49) game. We had a conversation. 

He says, Hey, I like where this is going. Let’s, let’s go to lunch. So (58:53) he has Carla, his assistant reach out to me. 

They scheduled lunch for two days from then. And the (58:59) stuff that Paul told me, the deep details that he told me, the trust first sort of thing. I mean, (59:05) he exposed the underbelly within hours of knowing him. 

Now, obviously there was some, he doesn’t do (59:12) that every, every time, every, everybody, but when that happened, we were able to have a real (59:17) relationship started, you know, right there. And so I think that’s that’s the first thing I would (59:23) say. Yeah. 

Our chief HR officer had a guy come to our last leadership conference last September (59:28) from a Covey, the Covey Institute and gave us a segment for what half a day on, (59:34) you could only move at the speed of trust and trust only starts where there’s authenticity (59:40) and vulnerability. And so it’s a, it dovetails well with Brené Brown, who says, you know, (59:46) the opposite of courage is not fear. It’s armoring up. 

And you think about how many people (59:51) have relationships, be it with their spouse or being at work to where you’ve been hurt in the (59:56) past, you’ve been let down in the past. So you armor up, right? Cause I’m not going to get hurt (1:00:02) again. Right. 

But you’re setting yourself up to be disappointed again, because until you drop the (1:00:07) armor, nothing good can happen or the best can’t happen. Right. I love that. 

What other one would (1:00:14) you say? So the second thing, and we’ve got we’ve got this author, his name is Fred Sievert. He’s (1:00:19) coming on in a couple of different episodes from now. And Fred wrote a book and I can’t remember (1:00:24) the exact title, but it’s fast. 

I think it’s called Fast Starting a Career of Consequence. (1:00:33) Okay. And so he wrote it for his daughter who was going to, was essentially going out into the (1:00:39) world to get a job. 

And one of the messages in there is, is that you’ve got to be willing to, (1:00:45) if you’re going to be noticed, you’ve got to be willing to do the things that get you noticed. (1:00:49) You know, and one of his examples is, be the first one there and the last one to leave. Now, (1:00:53) that’s not always possible, obviously. 

But how do you, people who really make a difference, (1:01:00) make it known that they’re making a difference and not by bragging, just by doing and being. (1:01:06) And so, you know, whether it’s, you know, Anthony moving to this area and then hitting the ground (1:01:13) running, essentially working before he was working, you know, to build out his network or, (1:01:19) you know, it’s you with you, whatever your routine is in the morning and getting up early and (1:01:23) going to bed late or whatever, but just making those sacrifices. Those are the people who end up (1:01:29) really making the difference, right? Nine to five in it, ham and egg in it, doesn’t do it. 

(1:01:36) And it sounds like from what you said, if I heard you correctly, it’s not about (1:01:40) self-promotion and all the bluster and bluff around that. It’s really about (1:01:45) find a way to make a difference. Just make a difference, bring value every day to somebody (1:01:50) else and something good does happen. 

And so I think that’s the, that would be the second one. (1:01:55) Third one, I don’t even, I don’t even know, just be nice and don’t burn bridges is the, (1:01:59) is the other thing is, you know, you can, Warren, Warren Buffett, actually I was asked to give a (1:02:03) little intro at an event the other day and they said they had to, on the way there, I learned that (1:02:09) I’m a C student, you know, I’m usually a little behind on things. So on the way there, I realized, (1:02:16) oh shoot, I need to come up with a, with a quote, a famous quote, you know, and the one that I have (1:02:23) to remind myself every day is you can always call him an asshole tomorrow, right? So hold your tongue (1:02:31) and if you still feel like you got to… I reserve the right to tell you something tomorrow. 

(1:02:34) Exactly. Hold my tongue today. I definitely can call him a jerk tomorrow and it’s always suited (1:02:40) me well, served me well to, to hold back on that. 

And other people who have that discipline of (1:02:47) holding back, right? You can, you can be passionate. You can be all those things that (1:02:52) make you who you are, but you gotta, you gotta have that self-control. If you don’t have that (1:02:57) self-control, it, you’re going to get relegated to something less than excellence. 

(1:03:03) I think it’s in the book of Proverbs, there’s a scripture that says, (1:03:05) a fool uttereth all of his mind, whereas a wise man keeps it until afterwards. (1:03:09) There you go. (1:03:11) There you have it, right? (1:03:13) Pastor, Pastor Warren Buffett. 

(1:03:16) I love it. I love it. (1:03:18) So Matt, thank you for this great time, guys. 

Any, any parting song that we should go out with? (1:03:24) No, no. We’ll end it on the biblical scripture. (1:03:29) All right. 

Well, thanks guys. (1:03:30) All right. Thank you. 

Appreciate it. (1:03:32) Thank you.