Episode 06

(0:00) Welcome to the BLTNT podcast. I’m your host, Matt Loria, serving up real stories of business, (0:05) life, technology, and transformations. You’ll hear from interesting people about big changes

(0:09) from career shifts to life-altering decisions and the innovations that help make it all happen.

(0:14) It’s about sharing those light bulb moments, pivot points, challenges overcome, and the journeys (0:19) that inspire us to think differently. If you’re on the lookout for insights to propel you forward, (0:23) stories that resonate, or just a bit of inspiration on your next BLTNT move, (0:27) you’re in the right place. Let’s dig in.

(0:41) All right, welcome to this episode of the BLTNT podcast, where I’m sitting with my friend,(0:46) Pete Thomas. How you doing, Pete? Good to see you. Good to see you.

(0:50) Pete is an author, a speaker, a coach, a former CEO, and you probably should know this,(0:58) he’s also a winner of the Biggest Loser. Oh, that sounds contradictory, but thank you. (1:05) He’s not a loser.

Not a loser. (1:07) But he’s the biggest loser, the winner of the Biggest Loser. So I’m glad you’re here.

(1:11) Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. (1:12) Thanks for being here with us.

Thank you for hosting me and (1:15) just your whole team here. I really appreciate it. Thank you, sir.

(1:18) No problem. No problem. And for anybody who can’t see that I have this iPad here on my lap, (1:24) you’re the first person who came with so many notes that I have to have them in front of me here, (1:31) because you’ve got a whole curriculum here in front of me.

(1:34) A curriculum, really? A curriculum. (1:38) I call them reminders. I’m of a certain age where I need reminders.

(1:42) I need you to spell out a word, so if you can readdress these. (1:47) I’m older. I’m older.

That’s what I’m spelling out. (1:52) So Pete and I are, I would say, newer friends. Absolutely.

(1:55) We’ve gotten to know each other over the last year here. Pete is a Vistage chairperson,(2:03) which, as many of you know, I’m involved in the Vistage group, the Vistage organization,(2:08) where I’m a member and have been since, I think, 2008. I’m trying to do the math there.

(2:15) And Pete is incubating a new group of business leaders. So the way that Vistage works is that (2:21) if you’re a new chairperson or a new group leader, you’re going to start under a current(2:27) group that’s already well-established and mature. So mature, I think, means old.

(2:31) So you’re under our nice old group that we have, and he’s incubating by bringing people along. (2:38) So that as he grows his group, those people are finding the value of being as a part of a group, (2:45) even though your group is still budding. Absolutely.

(2:49) And you’ve only got a few more spots to fill, which I’ve learned, which is amazing. (2:53) It is. And let me say thank you for your (2:58) kindness and generosity.

As our members have joined, as you mentioned, we join in with your (3:03) group. You’ve been very helpful just really acclimating them and setting expectations for (3:09) them. So our members know that they’ve got to come in, contribute, and look to grow.

(3:15) So I really appreciate that. Yeah, you’re welcome. You’re welcome.

(3:17) Well, you’ve done a fantastic job of bringing the right people, I would say, (3:22) into your group, which is always a value. It’s probably a big temptation when you’re getting (3:29) started with something like this to say, hi, I’m Pete. And whoever will talk back to you, (3:34) you grab their credit card and have them join up into the group.

(3:38) Well, it’s a good point. One of the things that I’ve said is when you have a group, (3:43) a peer group, an executive peer group of any type, the worst possible person to be in that (3:49) group is a know-it-all. And the ideal person to join an executive peer group is someone that (3:55) wants to grow, that wants to learn and develop.

And executive peer groups of many types have (3:59) been around forever. I remember when I was looking into this, going back and doing research, (4:05) Benjamin Franklin had something called the Junto. This was his peer group.

They met for 38 years. (4:11) And then you had Henry Ford and Firestone and Thomas Edison met on a regular basis. (4:18) So these peer groups, there’s nothing new about them, but it really does, you have to, as a leader, (4:25) you have to have the type, the correct demeanor.

And that demeanor is I want to learn. I want to (4:29) grow. I don’t know it all.

And I know that if I’m around some others who are as least as (4:34) sophisticated as I am, and if not higher, and that’s what typically it is in a Vistage group, (4:40) then I’m going to learn. And then I’m going to be able to go back and take that to my team. (4:45) And I’m going to take that to everyone in my organization.

So I appreciate you mentioning that, (4:49) because that’s the design of Vistage. You’re welcome. Let’s actually back up (4:53) just a little bit.

I know I kind of started right out of the gate here talking about Vistage, (4:58) almost as though people might know exactly what it is. And you’ve already alluded to that it’s a (5:04) peer organization for business leaders. But could you just give us a little bit more color on what (5:09) it is? And then we’ll talk about how we met, had that fistfight in the parking lot, and then (5:15) became best friends.

Absolutely. So Vistage, really it’s a peer group, but it’s an invitation (5:20) only, private and confidential executive peer group. And so if you could imagine about 15 to (5:26) 20 of your peers who are all in various types of business, they come together on a regular basis, (5:33) and a couple of amazing things happen.

I like to say it all happens when the group meets, (5:38) and that’s what our marketing material says, right? But in those meetings, you have subject (5:42) matter experts. A couple of months back, I was in a group, and the former CEO of Nabisco was there, (5:47) right? And they come in, these subject matter experts come in and teach for half a day. And (5:52) then the second half of the day is what we call the executive session.

That’s where the executives (5:57) that are in the room, they come in, and they bring their biggest complication, or biggest problem in (6:03) business, or biggest challenge. And the other members of the group end up helping them through (6:08) the challenge. My job is to facilitate, because when you got a lot of smart, successful people in (6:12) the room, what tends to happen is people will throw out suggestions after suggestions.

That’s (6:16) not the way it’s designed, right? What you really need to do is really need to understand the (6:21) problem that that executive is bringing to the room, understand that in depth. Is that really (6:26) the problem? And then after we do a great deal of work. Many times, if it’s related to financials, (6:32) you’re grilling that executive.

Are you sure about those numbers, right? Are you sure that you’re (6:37) hitting your profit numbers? That looks off, right? And then after all of that, all the questioning, (6:43) then come the suggestions. And then that leader is held accountable to go back and do some work. (6:49) Because they’re going to come back to the group as a whole and report on how well they’ve done, (6:53) right? Or how the action that they took, did it result in the action that they wanted, right? (7:01) If you think about it, man, I like to say it like this.

That time that the group just spent on your (7:09) problem is probably the most expensive hour of advice you’re ever going to get. And so it is (7:15) really an amazing place to be. It’s amazing.

When I was CEO, I was able to pull up my phone and ask (7:21) certain people that were in my Rolodex for specific advice. But this is about intentional (7:26) learning. I’m setting aside time to learn intentionally and to grow.

(7:31) You know, I never thought about it like that. When we’re internal here inside the company,(7:37) and you have four or five people in a meeting, you start to think to yourself, (7:40) boy, this is an expensive meeting. But when you think about being in a professional peer group (7:44) with 15 CEOs or almost 20 CEOs in that room that we were in just last, that’s an expensive group of (7:53) advisors.

Absolutely. So that is one of the more expensive things you can do for especially (7:57) when all the attention is focused on you, right? That’s right. And to solve your problem that (8:03) you’re bringing.

Absolutely. And it’s expensive not just if you think about if you break down (8:07) the salary per hour of each executive, but if you think about the number of years of experience that (8:11) are in the room, right? We’ve got some Vistage members that of course that you know that have (8:15) been in Vistage 29 years. You said that you’ve been in since when? 2008.

I still can’t do the (8:20) math. And so the number of years, the depth of experience inside that room, it’s absolutely (8:29) amazing. It’s a special place.

It really is. Well, that’s the room that we met in. So when (8:33) we met in the room, it was down in Wyandotte where one of our group members is actually (8:41) transforming, we should give him a plug, Ron Thomas.

Ron Thomas is transforming the city of (8:48) Wyandotte. So any of you who are watching or listening in Michigan, you should go visit. (8:53) But the group was hosted there.

We had a speaker who actually was a guest on the BLTNT podcast, (9:00) Andre Van Hall, and his seeing eye dog were there. And here’s this guy, Pete, (9:07) first time I ever see him. I’m looking across the table.

I came in late, a couple minutes late, (9:12) just to be told. So I didn’t hear his introduction. So I’m thinking, oh, he must be a new member.

Maybe (9:17) somebody is courting him to be a member. And when I see somebody new in the room, I get a (9:24) little skeptical. How much should I be divulging? What should I be sharing with this person? (9:31) And it was by way of your demeanor and your questions and your interactions that I started (9:37) to instantly give you authority or credit, I would say, of like, I want to get to know this guy.

(9:43) And where it really was, was in that executive session that you were mentioning. We were(9:49) helping one of the other members through an issue. And the group was getting a little bit eager (9:54) to be delivering solutions versus asking more questions and understanding.

And so I was getting (10:01) a little bit vocal about that. And then Pete spoke up and I thought, oh, this guy, he talks (10:06) pretty slick. He’s probably going to be given advice.

And he just nailed with some great (10:12) questions and never went into the, never assumptive in any way, which is where I was like, (10:19) oh boy, I got to get to know this guy because we all know what assumes spells, right? (10:24) Come on. That’s right. That’s right.

Absolutely. (10:25) And when you weren’t doing that, that really gave me some confidence that, hey, (10:30) this guy might be the real deal. (10:32) Well, and what you’re talking about is that Socratic questioning.

It’s one thing if you’re a (10:38) someone tells you what your solution is, right? But it’s a whole different thing if they ask (10:44) questions in a way that the solution bubbles up in your mind, right? And I think in that (10:50) particular case, it was obvious amongst the other executives that the particular executive that we (10:55) were dealing with his issue that he needed to grow as a leader. I think that was pretty obvious, (11:00) but it’s one thing when someone tells you, you need to grow as a leader, right? You’re (11:04) going to automatically get defensive. (11:06) Absolutely.

(11:06) But with the questions, if you can formulate the questions in such a way that they see their(11:11) own blind spots, right? Then it’s like, oh, I need to go read some books. I need to go talk to more. (11:17) I have to improve.

And that’s really the goal of the structure of this digit. It’s one of the (11:22) things that we say is we question your answers, right? And so you were right on. You were trying (11:29) to get the group to stick to the format, right? Which is where you’re inquisitive enough to truly (11:34) understand before we get into the questions.

And I was new, so I wasn’t trying to jump in or (11:39) anything, but that’s just the way that I think. I know that I’m surrounded by people. I’ve met some (11:44) amazing leaders, right? And a metal leader and her company, they do balancing.

So if a part comes off (11:54) the line, right? It connects to her equipment and it’s balancing out the manufacturer. I don’t have (12:01) to know everything about that. However, I know enough about business to know that I can ask you (12:07) certain questions to where the answers bubble up inside you.

And that’s really my goal. Put great (12:12) people in the room together, right? Make sure that we facilitate the meetings in such a way that the (12:17) executives leave. I’ll tell you this, this is what I call a testimony.

One of my members said, he said, (12:22) Pete, to be pragmatic about it. I’ve received the entire value of my Vistage membership in just (12:29) these first three months. Wow.

Right. And so that I feel like, okay, that means I’m doing my job (12:35) because that leader is able to take real information and take it back to his group or take it back to (12:40) his company and impact his company positively. So that’s what we’re trying to do.

That’s great. (12:44) That’s great. So after we met there, we then decided to get together for dinner and chat.

(12:51) And boy, some of the stories there really resonated. These are things maybe Pete wouldn’t(12:57) say about himself, but I’m going to make sure that I give a little color into Pete. But (13:04) well, I’m going to jump right to it.

We talked about the fact that you actually, not only did (13:10) you help a homeless person. Oh my goodness. You’re going there.

I’m going there. I’m surprising you (13:15) with this, but you actually let them live with you. Yeah.

So now you are a walk the walk, talk (13:21) the talk. Yeah. I try to be.

So usually, there’s this concept of let the right hand know what the (13:28) left hand is doing. But this is, so this is to me, I believe that this is a general principle. (13:33) What I’ve learned over time is that I have this ability to overcome difficulties and obstacles.

(13:39) And so in 2023, I’d resigned from my company. I was a CEO of a family owned business. And we were (13:45) preparing the prior two years to exit the company.

We wanted to sell the company. The leadership was (13:51) not ready to take it over. And we had done a lot of work in two years, but there was just certain, (13:56) certain reasons.

I was like, ah, we’re not right there. And you’re not ready to, to make the jump. (14:00) So I resigned.

And then I also, I was engaged, right. And that engagement ended. And then I did (14:08) something like, I don’t know if I should have done it at this age.

I went, I applied to Harvard (14:12) business school online, right. And it was accepted. And I’m taking three killer courses, accounting (14:18) and finance, statistics and economics, right.

So this is not a good year, man. I would have paid to (14:23) get out of those classes. You’re paying to get in.

So in my mind, there were two principles. Number one, (14:28) if I’m in the middle of a difficulty, I need to challenge myself and, and come leaving this, (14:32) leaving the company and leaving the relationship, I need to challenge myself. So what do I do? I (14:37) challenge myself in something I’m not strong at, right.

But then along the way, the other principle (14:42) I’ve always believed is when you’re in a difficult situation, help somebody out who is in a more (14:47) difficult situation. And I’m going to the gym one Saturday morning, right. And I’m like, low as, (14:53) woe is me.

I’m feeling down in the dumps. I got to go home and study this accounting, right. (14:58) And I see a guy who’s walking in the middle of the summer in July with a cane in one hand and (15:04) a battery in the other.

I’m like, well, you don’t see this every day. Just you don’t. And so I swing (15:09) around.

That’s a new, that’s a new, the newest of the EVs. That’s right. Self EV.

Exactly right. (15:16) Exactly. And so I swing around to help the new EV guy.

And, uh, and I said, do you need some (15:21) help in any way? I take him down to the local auto parts place to plug the battery up. And then in (15:26) the meantime, I take him across the street to, uh, across the street to get a meal. And it’s during (15:32) that time across the street, right.

Is where we start developing a relationship. And I learned (15:37) his story. He had moved over from Romulus to Ann Arbor and, uh, um, to, to find a job.

He was (15:43) living out of his car. His car was parked behind the planet fitness. Uh, but he had MS. So in my (15:49) mind, I’m thinking this is going to make this job search really hard.

He’s struggling to eat (15:52) and his hand is shaking. And then he says this, Matt, he says, you know, I’ve got to get a job (15:58) quickly because I want to go into real estate because I passed a bridge and I saw people under (16:04) the bridge and I don’t want to be there, but he’s saying it and his voice is shaking. Now, Matt, (16:09) that was my, my key to, to, to kind of dig in on that.

Uh, because as a guy, you’re right, (16:15) we can be abrupt and I was going to be abrupt with him. And I said, I said, look, let me, (16:19) let me explain something to you. You’re going to be under that bridge.

It’s July. You’re doing this (16:25) by yourself. You have no family here.

It’s just in a matter of months, you’re going to be under (16:30) that bridge. Like we talked it out. Your car doesn’t have tags on it.

You’re one day, you’re (16:34) going to come out of the shower and plan for that car is going to be gone. So let me help you out. (16:40) Right.

And so now again, we don’t know each other, so he’s got to establish a relationship. And in (16:44) Ann Arbor, they’re great resources for homeless and all of this type of thing. But eventually (16:49) I had an extra room.

I knew that he was going to need that room. Right. And so eventually he, (16:56) you know, I let him move in.

I had to coerce him, you know, I, Hey, you know, it’s December, (16:59) January, Matt. And I’m like, you know, it’s getting kind of cold out there. You know, (17:04) if you want me to come get you tonight, I’ll come.

So I would come get him for one night. (17:08) Right. And then the next night he tried to stay in his car.

And then one day he was like, (17:12) do you mind if I stayed till the spring? I’m like, not at all. And that’s 18 months ago. Right.

(17:16) And the great thing is we were able to get him some resources, getting some help, (17:20) get him to the doctor and all that kind of stuff. But the, I don’t want to sound selfish, (17:25) but I was in a bad place. And so I’m helping out somebody who was even worse.

And that just, (17:30) that, that levels your own emotional state. It’s like, okay, things are not the way that (17:36) I was planning them out, but I’m not that bad. Right.

And that also, we talked about this, (17:41) that led to a missions trip in Gambia this year where, you know, you’re in the 172nd poorest (17:48) country out of 185. It provides perspective, man. You realize, man, it’s not that bad to be (17:55) in traffic.

It’s not that bad to deal with potholes and all of these other things, you know, like I (18:00) live in a great place. And so I just believe that adds perspective to our lives. That’s great.

(18:04) Helping others. I’m glad that we, I’m glad I surprised you with that. Cause I, you did, (18:08) I threw me off with that one.

You didn’t have that in your, not at all in your note cards. (18:13) In my seven pages. No, I don’t have that in there at all.

So, (18:16) we will get to your seven pages because you do have seven, seven secrets of a great leader, (18:21) great leaders that you want to make sure that we maybe touch on a little bit here would be great. (18:25) But let’s talk about your, your career. So you mentioned that you, well, actually let’s, let’s, (18:33) let’s bring us up all the way from birth, I guess, to career here.

There’s some interesting things (18:38) that come along in here. So this is again, dinner conversation that we’re kind of bringing out to (18:44) the people was, I don’t know if I mentioned something about foster care. I don’t remember (18:48) if you started it, but, but you told me your story of, of how you grew up and.

(18:55) Well, you’re a great interviewer. So you likely were, were digging it out of me at dinner.(19:00) That’s probably what it was.

You think so? (19:01) I think so. I think so. You were trying to, who is this guy? (19:03) I learned those questions in Vistage.

That’s right. Exactly right. Who is this guy? (19:07) Let me check him out.

And so, you know, I like to say it like this. I grew up with the whole (19:11) sad story. And so I won’t bring the audience down by, by taking it down, but my mother struggled (19:19) with, with mental illness.

It was a combination of paranoia and dementia. And she had it really, (19:25) really rough so much so that she thought that people were coming to get me or get her kids. (19:30) She thought that constantly.

So in my earlier years, I was on the go. We, I lived in about 13 (19:37) different cities by the time I was 12 or 13 years old. And that means moving from Cleveland, Ohio, (19:42) Shaker Heights, Ohio, Pontiac, Detroit, then to the East coast, Washington, DC, (19:48) Arlington, Virginia, Norfolk, Virginia, just lived all over the place because mom was on the go (19:54) with me.

And what that meant is that many times I was in or out of foster home (19:59) or foster care. And there were times where she, when I was in foster care, because she had left (20:06) someone would call protective services, whatever it is for that day. And I would be in foster care.

(20:11) And then she would come to her right mind. And she would then call social services to find out (20:17) where I was. And then she would then go back and, and, and literally abduct me from foster care.

(20:23) So the very first time that she left for any period of time, I was just old enough to tie my(20:28) shoe. And she leaves for two weeks. And during that time, she tells me, go around to the neighbor’s (20:33) house and, and, and eat at my neighbor’s house.

So that’s what I do. And then I come back and play (20:38) by myself. If any of our audience members remember the old green machine, big wheel, (20:42) right? This is what I had and what I played with every day for a couple of weeks.

And when she (20:46) comes back, she’s got my sister. Now my sister, she wasn’t the type to rub her belly and say, (20:52) Hey, I’m having a baby. So I didn’t know that my sister was, was, was due or on the way.

(20:57) But I knew that I had a sister within about a year and a half, two years from that point.(21:03) We had moved to Detroit and my mom leaves again. This time when she leaves, I’m taking care of my (21:09) sister, right? I’m taking care of my sister.

And she leaves again and teaches me how to cook pork (21:15) and beans and hot dogs. Right. But I’ve got to take care of my sister every single day, (21:19) but then the food runs out.

And what do you do when you’re like six years old, right? Six or (21:25) seven years old, the food runs out. You got to take care of your little sister. Well, I packed my (21:30) little sister up in the middle of the winter and we go out the back door and we start knocking on (21:34) doors for food, right? Thankfully, I, the, the goodness in humans comes out immediately.

The (21:39) first family that, that took us in, they weren’t, you know, Jeffrey Domer wasn’t there. Right. (21:44) Takes us in, feeds us, and then takes us to the, to the local police station.

(21:48) My sister, that’s our first entrance way into the, into the foster care system. And, (21:53) but that was many years of that. And then my sister and I, we were separated.

We were separated (21:58) because my mom abducted me from the foster home that we were both in. And so it took me 48 years (22:06) to reunite with her, which is a whole nother, nother story, right? It was just an amazing (22:12) experience. But what that does for you, right, is through your life, it’s really difficult to (22:18) bother me now.

Cause I’ve gone through so much when I was younger and it was really difficult to get (22:22) me down. And I mentioned the time, you know, that, that was, but I’m, I’m not down too often. (22:29) And because I went through.

And not for too long either. That’s right. And because I went (22:31) through a lot when I was younger.

So, you know, anytime I’ve been, hey, there’s food around, (22:36) you know what I mean? I’m going to be okay. We got home. So resiliency and perspective, (22:41) I think are your.

Absolutely right. A couple of your strong, strong suits. (22:44) And that’s also what attracts me to business owners, executives, CEOs, that resiliency piece, (22:52) even myself personally, I think there’s different characteristics of an executive leader.

(22:58) When you’ve led your company through COVID, right? If you had to lead your, I remember waking up in (23:03) the middle of COVID thinking to myself, if I don’t sell three systems, it was a software company, (23:08) right? We sold software and hardware together. If I don’t sell three systems this week, (23:13) the owner’s sons will not be able to pay their mortgage. And that kind of pressure comes on you.

(23:18) And what do you do? Well, most leaders perform, right? And I sold three systems that week, (23:24) right? And so that particular year during COVID, we had the best year in our company’s history. (23:31) The team developed a strategy to do the installations when transportation was shut (23:36) down. But at the tip of the spear was the sales strategy, which I developed by the grace of God, (23:42) right? With a team came together.

And so that resiliency in my mind, a lot of that is based (23:47) in how I grew up, right? When you’re, I can remember us taking a bus trip to Norfolk, Virginia, (23:53) my mom and I. Now, again, she’s struggling mentally. We’re going to Norfolk, not for (23:58) any reason. And we ended up sleeping in the Greyhound bus station, right? So if you can (24:03) overcome that, I can overcome COVID, you know? It’s been an interesting, interesting journey, (24:10) for sure.

This episode of the BLTNT podcast is sponsored by Auxiom, business IT and cybersecurity (24:16) designed to outsmart chaos. Empowered by Juniper Networks, automate your network with Juniper (24:21) Networks and the Mist AI platform, the world’s first AI-driven wired and wireless network. (24:28) So here you are now, you’ve done a fair bit of coaching already, but you’ve chosen to (24:36) join in with Vistage Michigan because it has a structure in place and a support network in place (24:44) and kind of a tried and true methodology.

I know we talked about a little bit. Absolutely. (24:49) But you’ve kind of got your own seven secrets of great leaders.

That’s right. And I know that (24:54) that really fits into kind of everything here. I mean, certainly we’re already hitting on a lot (24:59) of the BLTNT here with business life technology and transformations.

I think we’ve already (25:05) talked about a few for you here, but you want to talk about these? Do you want to go over some of (25:09) these? We can go over all seven. Whatever you say. Let’s do it.

Well, the first thing is, (25:15) as you mentioned, the tried and true model, like Vistage was started back in 65 in Milwaukee, (25:19) when a group of executive leaders came together and said, we’re all dealing with certain (25:25) things collectively. Let’s get together and let’s talk about these things. And Vistage (25:29) has an amazing model.

As you mentioned, I’ve done training, gone across the country and done (25:34) leadership and development and all of those different things. But the model of Vistage (25:38) is unlike any other model I’ve seen. And a part of the reason that I love it so is because of what (25:44) we talked about, that executive processes, the executive sessions, it’s just really amazing.

(25:49) And what I’ve recognized over my years of traveling is that there are certain, what I (25:56) call secrets of a great leader. I think that anybody that has some followers, you can be a (26:01) leader. But if you don’t have a couple of things, the foundational things, which are character(26:04) and competence, those are foundation.

We don’t even talk about those because you need both of (26:10) those. But then on top of that, great leaders are visionary. And I say it’s two types of vision, (26:16) Matt.

Either you see something where nothing exists or you see something and figure out (26:22) how to optimize it. So at my software company, the owner, he saw windows, blank windows in real (26:29) estate offices. And he said, well, why are people scotch taping listings to the window? (26:33) And what that ended up turning into was that it turned into a touch screen system where there’s(26:39) no technology on the outside, but when you walk up to the window, you can touch the window and it (26:43) would bring up real estate listings.

It would work through the glass. So he saw something where (26:47) nothing existed. I don’t have that ability.

But if there’s something up there, I can optimize it. (26:55) So as a CEO, I can say, okay, we need to optimize the pricing. We need to bring the marketing team (27:00) on.

But a great leader is visionary, I think, in some way. Do you think that that’s true in your (27:05) experience? Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, the only reason I’m in the business that I’m in of (27:12) technology, of technology services and cybersecurity is because my brother and I were in business (27:18) together in a previous company and we had a great service provider.

They sold to a nationwide firm (27:26) so that whole everything changes when new ownership comes into play. No matter what the (27:34) people part of it was, it really changed dramatically. And so we really struggled to (27:39) find good support there for our midsize company.

And so I said, you know, I’m just going to start (27:45) my own after a few more failed attempts of finding the right partner. So that’s what I mean. (27:52) Yeah, it’s not like I was recreating the wheel.

That’s right. In terms of (27:57) nobody’s ever done this before. Now, what we did do, though, is we did see that (28:01) when we got into the business, that in our industry at the time, there was a lot of (28:07) standardization missing.

There was a lot of security missing. At the time I started the (28:13) company with my old partner, I was renovating a house, major, major, stud down renovation, (28:19) double the size of the house. Never do it again, I said, but now I’m doing it again.

(28:26) But you get exposed all of a sudden. I’d never done that before, but you get exposed to(28:31) electricians and to the electrical code and to the electrical permit and all those things. And(28:37) there’s actually, there’s standardization.

There’s training that these people go through. (28:41) What I realized in the IT world is that anybody can hang up their shingle and say, (28:45) IT expert. That’s right.

And they might be an expert, but are they an expert at scale? Are (28:51) they able to do this for multiple people at scale with a level of competency, with a level of (28:57) quality that people come to expect? So yeah, I think you’re right. It doesn’t have to be that (29:05) everything’s, what do they call it, red ocean, blue ocean, that one book. It doesn’t have to (29:10) be uncharted territory.

And I mean, one of the things that I even pick up from what you were (29:15) sharing there, the integrating is learning, right? You’re pulling in something from a non-unrelated (29:22) area, right? When you’re looking at the building a house and those standards and you bring that (29:26) over into business, right? That to me is also a visionary skill because not everybody can do that. (29:31) Not everyone has that ability. It’s going to, something’s going to come to me.

I remember, (29:36) remember having this, hearing this conversation recently about somebody(29:40) bringing something from another area. Well, you had, who was it? Anthony (29:44) Lavaldale. Anthony Laverde.

Laverde, right? The CEO at Imagine Theatres. (29:48) Imagine Theatres, but what he’s doing is he’s bringing things over from other parts of the (29:52) entertainment world, setting up podcast studios, right? Where they’re going to have audience (29:57) members, right? Who, and set up a ticketing system so that the podcasters or the influencers are able (30:04) to generate revenue, not just from YouTube streaming and all that, but from having an (30:09) in-person audience, right? So that ability for as a visionary to bring different things in, right? (30:15) I think that’s a unique thing with the leaders. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

(30:18) Another one, well, I mean, I’ve always, for a popular standpoint would be Elon Musk, right? So (30:26) he’s, he’s on the one side, he would see things that weren’t there. And then the other side is (30:31) just improve things. I mean, you have to recognize that Elon is a gentleman who said he’s going to (30:36) build an electric car company when the big three couldn’t do it successfully.

And he’s going to, (30:42) at the same time, he’s going to build a rocket that goes to space, comes back and is reusable, (30:48) like, and he’s going to do it at the same time, right? And so that visionary aspect to me is just, (30:54) it’s an amazing part of a great leader, a great leader. Want me to go to the next one? (30:58) Number two, I think great leaders lead, they take action from the front. In other words, (31:04) as a leader, you’re going to put the vision out there, but then you have to turn around, (31:07) you’re going to have to raise capital, right? You’re going to have to convince your team in (31:12) the direction you’re going.

One of my examples was in the Ann Arbor area, there was a roofing (31:17) company called Mr. Roof. They had a little J1800 called Mr. Roof, right? And Kurt Greaves was the (31:24) CEO’s name. We had a chance to sit down.

And every time I sit down, I’m interrogating, (31:28) I want to know, like, what were the critical times in your career? And there was a critical (31:31) time in his career where they were shifting from one type of shingle to another type, (31:37) but his salespeople didn’t want to make the shift. And he talked about, he went to his salespeople (31:42) and he said, there is no going back. If this does not work within 90 days, the company is going (31:49) under.

And he shut off all opportunity to buy the old shingles, right? But that’s leadership, (31:54) that’s risking the entire company on this idea, right? And that’s happened multiple times (32:01) throughout businesses where you’ve got to lead from the front. I just read a post from Mike Morse, (32:07) the Mike Morse law firm. Absolutely.

And he was talking about how he had most of his business, (32:15) and this wasn’t that many years ago. I want to say he said 10 or 13 years ago or something, (32:19) he was not a widely known personality or that his company wasn’t even widely known. He said (32:26) 70% of his business was coming from one referral source of an attorney.

And that got shut off (32:32) in a day or a month or whatever it was, some short period of time. And Mike had 35 employees (32:38) at the time. And he said, if I don’t do the right thing here, I’m going to have five real soon.

(32:43) And so, he said, I looked at the market and said, okay, there’s this other guy, right? (32:51) He didn’t mention him by name, but I think he was mentioning Sam Bernstein. And he’s saying,(32:57) this guy’s spending 20 million a year on marketing, but I got to at least do something. So(33:03) he went out and he started to market himself.

Wait, now let me understand this. He lost his (33:07) main referral source and decides to double, triple, quadruple down on advertising. That’s a (33:14) leader.

I mean, what? Just to come up with that. That’s taken action. I mean, that is like, and (33:19) it’s also the resiliency, the perseverance, it’s going to happen.

It’s going to happen for a while. (33:27) And that was one of the big things that I learned. And I struggled with that early on, (33:31) but when I grasped that lesson, that was the key to my own personal development.

(33:35) It’s like, oh, leaders do not believe that any challenge is going to sink them, right? You’re(33:42) just, it’s that resiliency. You’re going to figure it out. Now let’s go and get to figuring,(33:46) you know what I mean? Absolutely.

Next point that I wrote down here is we were talking about, (33:51) you know, great leaders gather great teammates, right? They attract talented teammates. You know, (33:57) in EOS, they talk about the integrator versus the visionary or right person, right seat. (34:02) But the vision or Dan Sullivan talks about who, not how, right? But if you’re a visionary, (34:08) a great leader, you’re going to attract people to the vision.

You have to attract the right people (34:14) because typically as a visionary, your vision is much too broad to handle the day-to-day stuff. (34:19) I was sharing with someone, you know, back to Elon Musk with all the different businesses that (34:23) he has, what really is the critical key for him is he’s got this suite. A lot of them are ladies, (34:29) this suite of COOs or integrators who will take his idea and actually get the work done, who deal (34:36) with the employees and all that.

Because if you follow him at all, you know, he’s all over the (34:39) place with these amazing ideas, but you have to have critical people on your team that help you to (34:46) accomplish these great things. You know, we actually, our vision that we set here is to (34:51) create a company that is a, that lives beyond its founders. That’s good.

And that’s a destination (34:58) company for employees and for clients. And so I always say, remember back in the day when you (35:03) could go work a whole career at General Motors, you could start off in engineering and go to (35:08) college for engineering, spend your whole career on the engineering track and know that you could (35:12) retire from that one place or same thing on the line. You could start on the line and you can (35:16) retire very nicely after working a whole career there.

But one of the other attributes was that (35:21) when somebody would get that job at GM, their buddy would be saying, hey, can you get me in? (35:26) Can you get me in? And I said, that’s one of the ways that I’m going to know that we’ve achieved (35:30) success here is when the employees are saying, their friends are saying to them, hey, can you get me (35:36) in? And we have a little bit of it today, right? We’ve got a lot of people who have brought their (35:40) friends into our organization, which is an honor and means we’re doing something right. But I want (35:46) that to be the overarching way that we’re always attracting the best talent and the best clients(35:51) too. Let me do a shameless callback to Vistage.

One, I remember when I recognized the power of (35:59) the group and of the room. I’m attending one of the chair’s meetings and eight o’clock is when (36:04) everybody starts, 8.30 is really when it kicks off. The Vistage chair gets a phone call at 8.25. (36:10) It’s from a member who could not make it in that day.

And that member was calling because (36:17) she was actively going through a medical procedure. I don’t want to share too much. (36:22) We anonymize all of that.

So you don’t say too much. Actively going through a medical issue (36:26) at that moment, at that moment. But the reason she called it is because she wanted the people (36:32) in the room, the other executives in the room who care about her and who she cares about.

(36:37) She wanted them to know what was going on. Like that says something, right? That says something (36:43) about the type of people that are in the room. And also says something about that Vistage chair, (36:47) the type of people that you attract.

And so it’s absolutely critical, (36:50) those teammates that you have around. Just critical. (36:53) That’s great.

That’s great. (36:55) Now here’s one of the things, my one caveat to that, right? You cannot attract what you do not (37:00) model, right? You can’t attract what you do not model. So great leaders in my mind lead themselves (37:06) first, right? You triggered Lencioni’s quote, right? When you talked about that, what was it? (37:14) I think I say it every day.

The ideal team player is humble, hungry and smart. (37:18) Three things, right? (37:19) Because I can’t remember the rest. (37:23) But I mean that just, and you have to be that as the leader, right? You have to model that.

And so (37:30) great leaders lead themselves first. You know, the thing that you mentioned before was about (37:34) my experiences in growing up, right? When people hear the story, and I didn’t look at it myself, (37:41) but when people hear the story, what they see in that story is what you shared, resilience, (37:47) right? I’m just going through life. I’m not going to give up.

I’m going to find a solution. (37:53) And I didn’t know that these were characteristics of leaders all around, because when I was growing (37:57) up, I didn’t have leaders all around. I didn’t have a dad and didn’t have all of this stuff.

(38:01) They’re like, oh, there are commonalities amongst great leaders and leading yourself first,(38:06) having this mindset, we’re going to accomplish great things, right? I’m going to be humble,(38:13) hungry. We’re going after this, right? And smart, whether it be, I’m going to be intelligent(38:18) myself or surround myself with smart people. It’s just, I think it’s critical.

(38:22) Well, with the whole, the great leaders lead themselves first. Do you remember Zig Ziglar?(38:27) Come on. (38:27) Would talk about, he was very overweight.

(38:31) Yes. (38:31) And he said he wanted to be a coach. (38:34) That’s right.

(38:36) Nobody’s going to believe me if they don’t think that I can take care of myself. (38:40) And so he, what he started doing was. (38:43) Jogging across the university of Texas college campus.

(38:46) Yep. But he did it one mailbox at a time. And he did it at night because he was embarrassed.

(38:51) That’s right. (38:52) So he said he went one mailbox at a time. First night was one mailbox.

Second night was two (38:57) mailboxes. So you, so you’re kind of in that same category. I mean, so the biggest loser, (39:03) let’s talk about the experience.

(39:05) Oh, I forgot. We haven’t talked about that. (39:06) Well, not exactly.

I mean, because, because also it has a resiliency story to it too. It wasn’t, (39:11) it wasn’t like it was just, you know, Pete showed up, slam dunk, won the thing. (39:16) Oh my goodness.

You’re very good point. So one of the problems that, that came about from my time (39:21) with my mom is, is this is an eating disorder, lack of a better way to describe it. Did not learn (39:28) proper eating habits, right? I lived in one particular time.

This just exemplifies how (39:33) difficult her situation was. We were living in East Lansing, Michigan. You know, I live in Ann (39:37) Arbor.

So I don’t like to say the college. (39:39) That’s okay. (39:39) Okay.

Thank you. So we’re living in East Lansing, Michigan off of grand river. (39:43) And at this particular location, we have a box screen and a mattress or a botch box spring and (39:50) a mattress in the house.

Mom puts the box spring against the window to block the rays that are (39:55) coming in because she thinks that somebody’s scanning the house. She also puts aluminum (39:59) foil around the top of the window to block the rays. We would go down to the Catholic church.

(40:05) I recently went back there to St. Mark’s or I think St. John, the evangelist Catholic church.(40:10) They had a food bank, but the food bank was not, we couldn’t get the food from the food bank (40:16) because in that location that we were living, we had electricity, but no gas. So we couldn’t (40:20) cook anything.

We were going to the Catholic church to get the church bulletins because in (40:25) the church bulletins were two for one coupons for Burger King, Whopper Burger King. And there (40:30) was a Burger King right next to the house. So I learned at an early age how to eat fast food, (40:36) right? And so you, when you have the fats combined with the salts and the carbohydrates, (40:40) it just throws your diet off.

But more importantly, we weren’t eating every day. (40:45) So I like to ask this question, right? Food is not available. Every one particular time, (40:49) I remember we went on a fast, right? We went on a fast for a week and it wasn’t until I’m (40:54) in my like mid twenties.

I was like, wait a minute. That wasn’t a spiritual thing. (40:59) We didn’t have no money.

We were broke. But at that particular time we were not eating every (41:06) day. So when you don’t eat every day, how do you think I would eat when food became available? (41:12) Like it was never going to be available again.

(41:14) Ever again. So I learned this habit of overeating, even when I ended up in foster care or whatever, (41:19) where the food was normalized, right? And what that led to was eating habits that were just (41:24) horrible. At one time I was over 416 pounds.

Now, again, always having this mindset of, (41:30) I’m going to get this weight off, but this has something to do with your conversation. (41:33) I can remember being in a man’s Bible study when I was around 25. And I said, well, if I’m this (41:39) big when I’m 30, I’m going to do something about it, right? Of course, when I was 30, I was that (41:44) and worse.

But then this television show comes along called The Biggest Loser. And I remember my (41:48) first thought was who the heck gets on this kind of TV show? Real people don’t get on here, right?(41:53) End up applying. I’ll make the story shorter from there.

I apply, make it on the show, (41:59) lose 83 pounds in 62 days while on the show. (42:02) Under Jillian Michaels. (42:04) Under my trainer, Jillian Michaels, who was just, she was a savant.

So this was like an answer to (42:09) prayer because she was amazing. And then once I was voted off the show, because I was voted off (42:14) after 62 days, I’m living in the Ann Arbor area. I’m running every single day.

I’m working out (42:19) two and a half hours a day at the time we’re doing real estate investing so I could adjust (42:23) and shift my schedule. And I lose 102 pounds at home. So I go back to the show’s live finale in (42:30) November of that year, having lost 185 pounds total.

And I win what’s called the at-home prize. (42:36) So it was an amazing experience. (42:38) And you’ve kept it off.

(42:39) Kept it off until 2018. In 2018, went through this medical issue, drinking contaminated water (42:45) and all that. It was crazy.

That was a crazy time. But here’s the interesting thing. That (42:50) Zig Ziglar story that you’re talking about, he told the story of after he ran from mailbox to (42:55) mailbox and improved, he tells a story of running across the University of Texas campus, right? (43:01) And he said that he realized when he had become a runner because he actually enjoyed running across (43:07) the campus.

When he first started, he was like, why are these people running and smiling, right? (43:11) And I have that in my mind while I’m running across the Diag at University of Michigan’s (43:16) campus. And I can remember when I got that feeling. Wow, that was a sense of accomplishment, (43:23) right? And ran an hour last night, even though I’m still recovering from that contaminated water(43:27) and all that, ran for an hour last night on campus, right? So it’s been an incredible journey.

(43:35) That’s awesome. (43:35) I think that it’s your number five here, too. I mean, it’s kind of right in line with all of this.

(43:43) Great leaders grow. You’re saying that I grew intentionally? I gained weight? (43:46) Yeah, you grew intentionally. (43:50) I’m going to say that you pursued personal growth and development.

I think that’s what I’m going to say. (43:55) That’s right. Absolutely.

And so why did you join Vistage? (44:00) I joined Vistage. Actually, my brother was a member before me. And his chairperson was a (44:08) fellow who’s since passed away, Larry Short.

And Larry sold his business back in the 90s for (44:13) oodles and oodles of money and had no need to continue to work. But he loved pouring into (44:20) people. And the growth that I was seeing in my brother and the changes and the different (44:27) perspectives that he was learning, I said, oh, I got to get on this bandwagon.

(44:31) So then Larry introduced me to Bob Holland, who’s my chairperson. And that’s how I got in. (44:38) And that has to be intentional, right? You have to intentionally want to grow.

You have to (44:44) intentionally take the time and say, I am going to grow. I’m going to develop. Like I was just, (44:49) I think I pulled up notes here on Tuesday.

I’m in a session and we’re learning about Pat (44:55) Lincione’s, his working genius model. And so you want to, as a leader, (45:01) I don’t believe that you can lead properly if you’re not trying to intentionally grow. (45:06) And I think sometimes, you know, when we’re, when we look at why does somebody (45:09) join a group like Vistage, right? Or, or a Bible study or whatever.

I mean, (45:13) whenever they seek the help of others, sometimes it might even, it feels unintentional or it feels (45:21) like there’s some divine intervention that maybe brings this along. But that’s only part of it, (45:26) right? Is that you have to have the openness to, you know, even if you don’t know that you can (45:31) admit it, you gotta be able to admit that you have a weakness or a problem or something that (45:36) you can, can seek out. And I think we watch this when new members come into groups like this, (45:42) where there’s a wall put up initially, right? And it takes one or two or maybe three sessions (45:47) all of a sudden before it’s like, oh yeah, I got problems too.

And you’re like, oh, wait a second. (45:52) I thought, I thought you were perfect, you know? And then, and then they really start doing the (45:56) work. And, but that’s that imposter syndrome that we all fall into.

And we know, we know when the (46:04) wall is up and we can’t hide from it. We can’t. And you’re right on target with that.

I was, (46:09) interestingly enough, I was talking to a gentleman yesterday who was referred to me to have a (46:14) conversation about it at this stage. And I was impressed. He’s young, but the first thing he says is (46:19) I need to grow.

He said, I’m strong in this area, but I’m weak in that area. And I just know I need (46:24) help with this. And I was referred to you.

And that’s just, that’s critical. That’s, I call it (46:29) self-awareness, right? I know what I’m good at. There’s also these levels of competency that you (46:34) could talk about, right? But knowing the areas that you’re not strong in and being intentional (46:39) about trying to go and develop yourself in that area.

To me, that’s critical as a leader. (46:43) I think what’s interesting too, is when you’re, when you’re dealing with people who have been (46:46) there, done that, you know, whether it’s you on the personal struggles or, or like a Bob Holland (46:51) with some of his business struggles, or you with your business struggles or just other members. (46:56) And I can think back to things that I brought to the group five and 10 years ago that I thought (47:03) were insurmountable.

And I’m watching the face of the other guy and I’m going, he’s, he doesn’t (47:08) look like this is that big of a problem. And then, you know, you fast forward five or 10 years, (47:13) you look back and go, that wasn’t that big of a problem. You know, and if the next person brought (47:17) me that one, I’d say, it’s not that big of a problem.

We’re going to work through it. That’s (47:21) exactly right. But that is the, I think that’s also the critical piece, right? Being able to (47:26) work through it.

First of all, being able to feel vulnerable enough to bring it to somebody, (47:31) to bring it to a group and not just a board of directors, right? Where you’re going to reach out (47:36) to them either on a quarterly basis or when you need some help, but intentionally on a regular, (47:41) on a regular, a regular basis, such as in our Vistage Meet. The other thing is, is association (47:46) meetings. You know, many of our members are already members of associations, but those are(47:51) scheduled, you know, quarterly or half biannually or whatever.

And somebody else sets the agenda (47:57) where in our meetings, your chair typically sets the agenda. And it really is about you intentionally (48:03) growing. Well, I think the other groups out there too, I mean, I mean, most, many groups are network (48:08) related, which we all need our network to be strong.

I mean, that’s right. Absolutely. I mean, (48:12) there’s no question about that.

But the fact that there’s, that there’s not really a bias towards (48:21) that in those meetings. It’s really, it’s really learning. It’s really growing.

That’s right. (48:25) That’s what we’re trying to accomplish. Well, the other side is you have, you have a chair, (48:30) such as myself.

And my goal is to, is to spend as much time as possible going out and, and just (48:38) learning as much about all the new things that are out there, speaking to members, such as yourself, (48:42) what are you using in your business so that we can potentially bring it back to the group? (48:46) Because when you think about it, there’s tons of different assessment. You get Acumax assessment, (48:51) Myers-Briggs, EOS, there’s Rockefeller habits for scaling up, small giants, right? Open book (48:56) management, Dan Sullivan’s, there are all of these different things that are out there to (49:00) help you with your business, but which one will really help you, right? And you need a group to (49:05) be able to talk to someone, Hey, I’m going to service-based business. What are you using in (49:10) your group to take care of your customers? What are you, you know, there’s just nothing quite (49:14) like this to be able to help you.

I call it a cheat code. It really is a cheat code for helping (49:20) you with your business. So let me ask you one of those cheat code kind of questions for the whole (49:23) audience.

We talked about this on a, on a prior episode, slightly, you talked about it slightly, (49:28) but how do you manage accountability in a hybrid environment, hybrid work environment? I know you(49:35) shared a little bit that you’re bringing on some hybrid workers or workers that were out of state, (49:39) if I remember that. So how do you manage accountability in that environment?(49:43) Yeah, well, KPIs, obviously, but technology, we have technology that manages some of that, (49:50) but also just the relationship that you’re forming with, with the folks. So (49:57) the relationship for us is if, if we can’t find that the person is able to contribute to culture, (50:03) we know that it’s not working.

So there’s, there’s, there’s some measurements, (50:06) but then there’s some also, also some feel that’s behind it. Right. And so we’ve been very (50:12) fortunate with the, with the folks that we have that are out of state and have had good performance (50:17) there.

And it’s working well. The most challenging thing I think is, is the, is the flexible (50:23) schedules, right? And going, okay, is Pete going to be in today? Is he not going to be in today? (50:27) So we actually have a piece of software that overlays on Microsoft Teams that tells us that. (50:33) And so it’s much easier when we’re using that technology to, to know where people are.

(50:37) That’s good. (50:38) So we don’t do a couple of laps around the office looking for, you know, is Pete here? (50:42) You know, we can just click right in. It’s called Kruhu.

And we’re able to, (50:47) I’m sorry, it’s not called Kruhu. It’s called hybrid healthy. (50:51) Okay.

(50:51) Hybrid healthy is the name of the, of the product that overlays over Microsoft Teams. So, so yeah, (51:00) yeah, there’s, there’s that, but, but Kruhu is another, is another piece of technology that we (51:03) use and that is, is helping to incentivize the, the employees in different ways and give them (51:10) feedback of, and that’s one of those feedback mechanisms from our, from our clients. (51:15) That’s good.

(51:15) That they use as well. So all of those things together, I mean, that’s how we do it. Is it(51:20) easy? Not always.

(51:21) That’s good. (51:21) You know, and it’s funny. There’s what, what we’ve also found is that the more comfortable (51:27) that an employee gets is that they’re, they’re then able to kind of come to their own realization (51:33) of things.

We’ve actually had employees say, you know what, I’m not good at working at home. (51:38) That’s good. (51:38) I want to be in the office every day.

(51:39) Right. Absolutely. (51:40) And so when you hear somebody say that, okay, let’s, let’s find a way to accommodate that.

(51:44) That’s good. And so this is the, just the, this type of advice is to me is one of the critical(51:49) pieces about having a peer group, right? To be able to come in and have these conversations or (51:53) to develop the relationships and say, Matt, I know you’re running a service-based business. Let’s go (51:57) out and grab a meal together because I’m struggling in this area.

So thank you for sharing that. (52:01) Well, I think what we find too is the blend of all the different types of businesses that we get to (52:06) interact with. So we learn things from people in different industries all the time.

And so (52:12) it’s not always that another IT guy, you know, tells me something that, that, that helps me learn (52:18) how to manage my business different. Sometimes it’s the, it’s the real estate guy or it’s the lawyer, (52:23) or it’s somebody different like that. So.

(52:26) And that’s what I put down is, you know, it’s kind of a sub point, but as a part of growing(52:30) intentionally is learning lessons from others. I have always had an executive coach. You mentioned (52:35) Jillian Michaels, right on The Biggest Loser, right? She was an amazing coach.

But as I, (52:39) when I was CEO, I had an executive coach and he helped me because it was a family-owned business. (52:45) And this was something I was not accustomed to, right? The, the, we call them the cultural issues, (52:50) right? But the, the challenges inside the family, it was, it was, I can remember Matt one day going (52:56) home on a Friday because the owner had challenged me not to challenge his son, right? Even though (53:02) he had put me in this position because his challenging didn’t work. Right.

And I remember (53:07) that was like the worst weekend of my tenure. And, and thankfully I had a session with my (53:13) executive coach scheduled on that Monday. And he said, Pete, you’re taking on problems you should (53:18) not be taking on.

And he gave me a simple example of a tennis example. Every time a problem like (53:22) that comes to your side of the net, you knock it right back and say, Hey, I’m focused on these KPIs,(53:27) right? We’re focused on growth. You got to handle that because this is what we need to do.

(53:31) And it was like a huge relief, right? But it just speaks to the importance of having someone else (53:37) that can speak into your life and they can encourage you. Well, there’s a, there’s a(53:41) Vistage expert speaker, Tom Foster talks about a time span and capacity to manage different time (53:50) spans, what your outlook is. But one, one thing he talks about is the, as soon as it comes, (53:57) as soon as it butts up to being a, being or requiring a clinical psychologist,(54:03) you need to bail out of that.

That is not your, that is not your realm of expertise. Now I’m sure (54:08) there’s a CEO or two or a coach or two out there that does have that. But but if that’s not your (54:14) expertise, you need to, you need to tap out at those points.

Absolutely. And I mean, you mentioning (54:18) him and he, I remember listening to him, I think it was in December. I heard him and he was (54:23) mind-blowingly excellent.

You know, he was just, just phenomenal. He was just absolutely phenomenal. (54:29) All right.

So what do you think from your go to the next one? I think, I think you should, (54:32) unless you want to talk about the four types of knowledge here that you have. (54:35) Well, I think we’ve covered a bunch of that. You want to share that for a different, (54:38) let’s, we got it.

We got to tease people for a different episode. Yes. Okay.

Then. All right. (54:43) Excellent.

So I think there, there we’ll, we’ll touch base on the four types of competence or (54:47) four types of knowledge, right? There’s a conscious competence. This is, you know what, (54:53) you know, right? I know that wall, right? Has, has black foam on it. You know what you do.

(54:58) And then there’s unconscious competence, right? There are things that you do that you don’t even (55:03) think about. This gets into the realm of mastery, right? And, and we know we can see this at times (55:09) with athletes. We can see it with musicians, but everyday folks, everyday leaders, when you sit down (55:15) and you have a conversation in an interview, in an interview session, certain things just pop up in (55:20) your head and unconsciously, you know, yep, this person is going to be great or no, this person (55:24) won’t fit the culture as you talked about, right? So that’s the unconscious competence.

(55:29) And then the, the areas that are dangerous are the competent, conscious incompetence.(55:35) In other words, you know what you don’t know. I do not know the distance from here to the moon (55:40) in square feet and miles, but I know I don’t know that, which is okay.

But then this area, (55:46) I don’t know what I don’t know. And that’s this, this, this not a gray area. It’s this black, (55:52) it’s this unknown area.

And you have to find it out. You have to find out what it is that you (55:58) don’t know. You don’t know.

The best way to do that is to be around other leaders, (56:03) be around other executive, other people of your peer group or above who have gone through different (56:09) things. This is why when you shared, you brought this problem to the group and somebody was like, (56:13) well, that was not that big a deal, right? Because to you, this was a big deal, but to them, (56:18) they’re like, you’re going to get over that. Well, they knew they lived through it on the (56:22) other side.

Exactly. So that’s why I thought we were going to hold back on this and tease it for (56:27) another episode. That was the tease.

You just jumped right into it. Oh, this is, oh, we’re (56:31) going to dig deeper. If you say that was the next time, you know, well, I just did not follow your (56:36) lead correctly.

That’s all that was. That’s okay. That’s okay.

That’s how we know it’s (56:40) not fully scripted even though you gave me the script. Yes, that’s true. That is so true.

So (56:46) Pete is organized. I think that’s another thing we have here is he comes organized, he comes (56:51) prepared. So number six.

Number six, this is almost the last one, right? But this is the (56:57) semifinals. Great leaders overcome every single obstacle, right? Every single obstacle. I shared (57:05) that, you know, working.

Well, I’ll ask you, what was going through the pandemic like for you (57:10) and your team? Oh, I mean, well, at the beginning, I went into, I don’t know how they measure the (57:17) DEFCONs. I was in DEFCON, whatever the highest one was. I was in DEFCON.

I think it’s one to five. (57:22) I was in five. Which one? No, five, I think it’s five.

Okay, I was in the top one. Yes. And I just (57:29) thought, oh my gosh, we’ve worked so hard to build this business, bring this team of people together, (57:34) you know, oh my gosh.

And it was all the what-ifs and the toilet bowl of the what-ifs of what’s (57:39) going to happen. What if this does happen? You know, how can we ever put this team back together, (57:43) et cetera. And then the other thing was, is how the heck are we going to do this? We’re all remote,(57:48) you know, and that, you know, from a technology standpoint, it was a no-brainer.

We were already (57:52) there. We had the security, we had the technology, everything was lined up for us. (57:57) Our customers, they needed the help.

So we were busy. We were busy, but I was worried every day (58:02) what happens if our team gets sick? What happens if somebody passes away from this? And it was just, (58:08) it was a lot of pressure. And I ended up working more hours during COVID and I had some medical (58:15) issues during COVID that weren’t COVID related.

It was the stress that was building up in the (58:21) back of my head. Yeah, I thought I was having a stroke and went to the ER. And, you know, (58:27) then of course went through all the tests and everything.

And they said, you know, (58:29) there’s these muscles back here. And when you’re really stressed, intense, and the way I was (58:34) sitting in my office chair, it was all contributing to it. And so it affected my eyes, it affected my (58:41) neck, affected my head.

And yeah, so I took it hard at different times, that’s for sure. But we (58:47) thrived. I mean, we thrived.

We gave a lot of clients discounts to try to help them through. (58:53) That’s good. We had a couple of, you know, we had a couple of people leave because, you know, (59:00) they couldn’t be out in public.

Absolutely. You know, it’s the people that were in the field. (59:07) But we overcame it, right? We just kept going, you know, it was pivot, pivot, pivot, pivot.

(59:12) That’s right. Whatever you got to do. And that to me is the key word, overcome every obstacle, (59:16) right? And so, I mean, there are a couple of things that come to mind.

I’m always (59:21) okay if we just didn’t have any for a while. Right, right, right. Of course.

(59:25) Hopefully, that probably will never happen, right? But you’ve had a couple of other podcasts, (59:30) guests on, right? Andre Van Hall. Remember, he went blind. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. So, I mean, (59:35) he’s the guy anytime I’ve, ever since I met him, anytime I have anything going on, I think, (59:42) you know what? But what if? Well, what if somebody told you you’re gonna be blind in (59:45) two weeks? Fully blind, you know, because you, by the way, you woke up half blind today. Yes.

(59:49) And you’re gonna be fully blind in two weeks. Adjust from that, right? Exactly. And then on(59:55) the business side, right? When you had Ingmar on from Marlowe Beauty Supply, what they decided (1:00:00) in the middle of that, right? They worked with their attorney to make sure that they were a (1:00:04) required business or whatever and doubled down because their customers needed them, right? So, (1:00:09) they expanded their warehouse operations, right? It’s those times where the obstacles present (1:00:16) themselves, the true leadership comes up.

And I appreciate you sharing that even about your own (1:00:21) health because we have to make sure we’re managing that in the middle of it. Sure. One of the things (1:00:25) I learned from the health side of things, you know, there’s that fight, flight or freeze response.

And (1:00:31) what you were going through is no different from the response that our ancestors would have felt (1:00:36) if they went out to gather food and they had to fight off a lion, right? All of that testosterone, (1:00:43) all of those hormones build up, but they would release it in the fight, right? Whereas you, (1:00:50) it has to be an intentional release because this is all building up and now it feels like a stroke (1:00:55) and you have to take care of yourself as a leader. That’s not even one of my seven points, (1:00:59) but it’s absolutely critical. And a matter of fact, let me mention that.

I had this thought (1:01:04) in this conversation with someone recently, and this is why I’m in this space, right? I have such (1:01:10) an incredible love and respect for leaders and business owners because leaders such as yourself, (1:01:18) right? You start businesses, you hire employees, those employees are then able to go pay their (1:01:24) mortgage, right? They’re able to put their kids through college, right? If this did not exist, (1:01:29) if businesses like yours did not exist, where would we be in general, just as a society? (1:01:35) I was thinking about this. One of our local leaders, Dan Gilbert, had a health challenge (1:01:38) here in the last few years, right? And someone asked me this question. He said, could you (1:01:42) imagine if he had the health challenge seven years prior? Now he’s critical to the revival of this (1:01:49) entire area of Detroit, right? He bought several buildings for, I think 14 buildings for a few (1:01:55) hundred million dollars downtown and strategically worked to bring the downtown area back.

Can you (1:02:01) imagine if he had a stroke or medical challenge seven years prior and could not do that, right? (1:02:07) How long would it take for politicians to figure out a way to bring the city back? (1:02:12) So business owners, right? Such as those who come to visit, such as yourself,(1:02:17) absolutely critical for society and proper functioning of our society. And so that’s (1:02:21) why I’m in this space to serve. I know it’s an overstated word, right? But to serve leaders, (1:02:27) to be their best selves because you’re absolutely needed.

So, you know, if we need to get you a (1:02:33) massage. I’m all good now. All good.

Good. Excellent. Excellent.

But, you know, you mentioned (1:02:40) something there of, maybe it’s what you mentioned, maybe it’s what you didn’t mention. You mentioned (1:02:49) the love of serving business leaders. And I will say that when, you know, when I watch, I mean, (1:02:56) over the years I’ve watched, I’ve watched the other Vistage chairs and what they do.

And, (1:03:01) you know, Bob in particular, and now you, you know, you have members all over the place. So (1:03:07) this is not a phone it in sort of a relationship that you have. You’re driving from Ann Arbor to (1:03:13) Port Huron to Lansing to wherever, not East Lansing, but Lansing.

You know, this is not a (1:03:21) sit there and phone it in type of business. And so for people who are, you know, who have (1:03:27) been there, done that, have achieved some levels of success like you have to then give back. It is (1:03:32) really a serving and so it doesn’t go unnoticed.

I can say that. Thank you. I appreciate it.

I (1:03:37) appreciate it. You know, one of the things, and we can wrap it up with this one. I sound like I’m (1:03:42) hosting the show.

I’m sorry. You’ve got a better voice, man. You should be.

You’ve dressed better. (1:03:46) You’ve got a better voice. Well, I teased it a little bit in talking about Dan Gilbert, (1:03:53) but I believe that great leaders grow and then give back.

Right. And I just mean this historically, (1:03:59) when you look at JD Rockefeller, I remember one of the first autobiography or the biography rather (1:04:04) that I read was him and how he took his money and he invested in biomedical research. Right.

(1:04:09) A doctor came to him because I hate to say it in this way. Right. But folks in the South,(1:04:15) they seem kind of slow.

Right. And the doctor said, I think what it is, is there’s something (1:04:19) going on with the ringworm. Right.

And so Rockefeller was able to fund that therapy or (1:04:26) that that do that by a fund, that biomedical research and change the course of medicine (1:04:32) and an eradicated ringworm in the South. And then, of course, he goes on to fund education, (1:04:36) Spellman College, which most people don’t know. It’s an HBCU.

It is named after his wife. And so (1:04:42) Ted Turner, I remember when Ted Turner years ago, he criticized Bill Gates because Bill Gates wasn’t (1:04:47) giving back. Right.

And that was way too early because Bill Gates was focused on the business. (1:04:52) And then again comes this period of giving back where he and Warren Buffett have created one of (1:04:57) the greatest fund philanthropic organizations in the world. Right.

You’ve got McKinsey, Scott, (1:05:05) Jeff Bezos, his ex-wife has given over a billion dollars to education. And so what I recognized (1:05:11) over time is the best sources of change have come through business leaders who give back. (1:05:20) Right.

And I say that from this perspective. Right. You had someone on who was that maybe (1:05:26) that was Ingmar who talked about this hiring folks, Second Chance.

Yeah, he’s a second chance (1:05:32) organization. I call them as I we had a young man that was came through a mentoring group that I (1:05:38) or a men’s group that I belong to where one of the gentlemen was mentoring this young man (1:05:43) and he had a pretty heavy criminal background and he needed a chance to get back on his feet. So (1:05:49) I knew some other people who were in more regulated industries that could not hire (1:05:54) that person.

And so Ingmar says, oh yeah, we’re a second chance organization. We’ll give a chance. (1:06:00) Similar to up in Ann Arbor, Zingerman, Ari and Paul, they’re the same way.

And so now I imagine, (1:06:07) and I think you mentioned in that particular case, it didn’t work out long term, but imagine (1:06:10) if someone has a need. Right. And they’re looking for employment.

How long would it take them (1:06:16) to go through the government or political channels? Sure. Versus, hey, this was handled (1:06:23) in a call, a phone call or two. Right.

And so I really feel like business leaders, the whole, (1:06:29) one of the primary outcomes of growing something exceptional is that you have the opportunity to (1:06:35) give back. If someone had met me when I was earlier in my career, found out all these difficult (1:06:42) things that I had gone through, the best place for me to go is go to a business leader. Hey, (1:06:48) give me an opportunity to prove myself.

Well, I remember Anthony talking about it. Well, (1:06:52) you mentioned the who, not how. That’s right.

And then you remember Anthony coming to town (1:06:57) and he started with that first meeting. I don’t remember what the gentleman’s name was. Oh, (1:07:01) absolutely.

The first person. And that was the, that was the linchpin who then. That’s right.

(1:07:05) Introduced him to the next person, introduced the next person. So the who, not how is, I mean, is. (1:07:10) Critical.

It’s very critical. I mean, it’s, it’s how, it’s how I think everyone, everyone grows as (1:07:17) a business leader is, is to surround themselves by the right people and make sure that you’re(1:07:21) living clean too. Right.

So you don’t burn those bridges and you don’t do things that, (1:07:27) that you shouldn’t be doing. That’s right. Character and competence.

Those folks will (1:07:30) hold you. And that’s one of the things too. And we’re not going to delve into a political (1:07:35) conversation, but when you have all of these different programs, you’ve got DEI and this year, (1:07:41) and next year it’s Black Lives Matter and all of these things, those things come and go.

(1:07:45) What does not change is the best to me. The best thing to do is to provide an opportunity(1:07:52) for folks to prove themselves. The best place for that to happen is through good old American (1:07:58) enterprise, good old American business.

Right. And so while even as in building my group, (1:08:02) I’m looking for diversity, male, female, all the different minorities. But at the same time, (1:08:07) the expectation is when you are successful with your business, you’re going to look for a way (1:08:13) to give back because waiting for politicians is just going to take a generation or three.

(1:08:18) And they might get around to it. It might be effective, but maybe, but take a lot longer.(1:08:23) So speaking of giving back, and you talked to me about this, you knew I grew up in foster care, (1:08:29) right? What led you to become involved in foster care? (1:08:33) Well, my parents lost a baby when I was in high school.

And that then drove them to (1:08:43) want to be involved in foster care. They felt like that was their calling. So (1:08:48) I have two adopted brothers who came out of that program.

And then when my wife and I found out (1:08:53) that we couldn’t, you know, we continued to have miscarriages. And so we decided that we were (1:08:59) built for this and we knew about it. We knew enough to be dangerous.

And so we jumped in. (1:09:05) We were built for this. I love it.

We’re uniquely qualified is what I like to say. (1:09:10) Absolutely. This is awesome.

And so, and that’s a part of giving back because (1:09:15) what you do here at Oxium, it needs to provide a certain amount of revenues for all of your (1:09:21) employees. And it also needs to provide a lifestyle for you to be able to reach out in (1:09:26) a foster, a foster parent. So that’s to my point, right? We’ve got to do this, you know, as leaders, (1:09:32) as business owners, we’ve got to do this.

We’ve got to be successful. (1:09:34) Well, I think, I mean, we have opportunities to do things before we reach certain levels (1:09:39) of success as well. And I think that’s the, I think if, you know, when I look at like Ingmar, (1:09:44) that’s what I say is Ingmar might be wildly successful, but it didn’t take that for him (1:09:48) to be able to recognize, hey, you know what? I hired somebody who had a little bit of a past.

(1:09:54) That’s right. (1:09:54) Who was really successful with, what’d he say, 20 or 30 years that one fellow’s been with him. (1:10:00) And you know, had he not given that opportunity, it wouldn’t have benefited him either.

But what (1:10:06) he’s done generationally to disrupt and interrupt that pattern of that downward cycle is huge. So (1:10:14) I think that’s great. But I think we have to start that stuff before the money is there.

(1:10:20) Come on, that’s a good point. Absolutely right. And then business gives you that opportunity.

(1:10:24) And this is even a story from growing up, went to high school on the east side of Detroit. And (1:10:29) one of my good friends ended up going to jail for a long period of time. And when he came out, (1:10:34) a business owner gave him a chance, right? The guy ran a printing shop and he gives him this (1:10:41) huge manual and he tells him, hey, go take this manual, go learn how to learn, come back in two (1:10:47) days, right? And he had been in jail for about 20 years.

So you know what he did was not a minor (1:10:52) thing, right? And he went in two days, he said in two days, I didn’t have it memorized, but I had, (1:10:57) I knew it well enough to be able to do the job. (1:11:00) He had those many years to learn how to read. (1:11:02) How to read.

That’s right. How to memorize. And so, but then he went from that job to another (1:11:08) job to going back and finishing his bachelor’s and then went and got his master’s from Wayne State.

(1:11:13) And he’s just, and now he’s leading a nonprofit organization that helps other returning citizens, (1:11:19) as they call it, to go back and get their education. But that all started because a(1:11:23) business owner says, okay, I can see what you’ve done. The fact that you’re here, (1:11:28) I’ll give you a chance to prove yourself.

Right. And that to me is just so critical. (1:11:33) I remember even just hearing the, I can’t remember the guy’s name, the pastor who runs (1:11:39) Grace Centers of Hope.

He was telling stories of the first guy that really helped him with the (1:11:46) biggest donations was a business owner who was doing some, I think he was in the demolition (1:11:51) business or something. I can’t remember. But nonetheless, he says, you know, hop in my car (1:11:55) and he drove him over to some building and says, hey, can you guys use these? He says, (1:11:59) we can’t use them, but we can sell them.

And so that was one of the ways that they started (1:12:03) into their stores. And so, you know, as business leaders, we have these unique opportunities to (1:12:09) see into these opportunities that just don’t, that are just not visible to everybody. Well, (1:12:16) it’s not even vision.

It’s just, it’s just that we’re exposed to it by virtue of being in it. (1:12:20) My old, my old boss used to say, you know, you’re in the occasion of sin, right? You know, bad (1:12:25) things happen or good things can happen, you know, when you’re in this occasion of, (1:12:29) of being exposed to all of these opportunities. And that’s why we wanted to do this podcast was (1:12:34) because I get to meet all these unique people who are doing crazy good things and big things.

(1:12:40) And I thought, let’s, let’s share it with other people. Right. And, and I think that’s, (1:12:46) that’s part of what I’m hoping, you know, everybody finds a value.

(1:12:50) And on that last one, I remember here, even locally, Mitch Albom, of course, (1:12:54) who we know as a sports writer, he’s got two businesses that went back to get his MBA. And (1:12:59) those two businesses are specifically designed so that all the profits go to charity. He’s got a(1:13:04) water, Detroit water ice downtown and over in here locally in the mall, he’s got brown, brown bag (1:13:12) popcorn.

Right. And that’s specifically designed to give back. So you’re right though, business (1:13:16) leads, you have those unique opportunities.

Absolutely. Great. Well, you hadn’t, you had (1:13:25) told me the other day, there was a few business leaders that have really impacted you.

So why (1:13:29) don’t we wrap up with some of these leaders who have impacted you and then we’ll, we’ll break (1:13:35) until next time. All right. Sounds good.

Sounds good. You know, I just thinking back over and (1:13:40) cause this also relates to, you know, being in a peer group, thinking back to those people who have (1:13:46) impacted me the most. And I think the very first person I remember my very first boss, (1:13:52) right.

That was really impactful. Her name was Margie Henwood and she was a straight shooter,(1:13:58) as we say, right. So I’ll, I’ll, I’ll stick with just her, but I can remember this was when I was(1:14:03) doing it.

So I’ve done programming and all of that kind of stuff. I was doing it support at the time (1:14:07) and she calls me in her office and she closes the door. So, you know, there’s going to be a (1:14:12) conversation, right.

And she’s really direct. And she says, Pete, why are you supporting that (1:14:19) customer on that product? Right. This is a straightforward question.

She had told us (1:14:24) previously that when customers come in with this particular issue, that we’re not supposed to (1:14:28) support them. Right. And I look directly back at her and I said, because the sales team sold that (1:14:35) product.

So I can ignore that customer. And that will leave, that will leave a very bad taste (1:14:42) in terms of the reputation of this company. Or I can take time away from another customer that (1:14:49) some of these other, some of our other reps can handle.

And I can service that customer. But the (1:14:54) root of this is our sales team sold this product. And she twiddled her fingers and she’s like, (1:15:03) you did the right thing.

And what I appreciated was the fact that she was willing to hear me out. (1:15:11) And if I was wrong, she was going to tell me. Right.

But willing to hear me out, (1:15:15) willing to engage me in that fashion, and then willing to allow me to go around her rule (1:15:21) because it was the right thing to do. And so I think that we all have in our lives, we have some, (1:15:28) some leaders or some bosses that have impacted us. Right.

And those lessons of story I’ve taken (1:15:34) time to write down the particular lessons and stories that I’ve learned from great leaders. (1:15:39) And that’s one of the things that we’re talking about. Right.

And how other people we’ve listed (1:15:43) off these different names, because they have stood out to us and they’ve made a positive impact. You (1:15:49) are seeking to have a positive impact on the on the entrepreneurial community with this podcast. So (1:15:55) thank you for that.

Thank you. Well, thank you for being here. Absolutely.

Thanks for sharing (1:15:59) your story. Appreciate it. I think we’ve definitely hit business.

We’ve hit life. (1:16:02) We’ve hit technology and transformation. I think our job here is done.

Can I get more water for (1:16:09) that? We’ll give you one more water for that. Yeah, one more. Maybe we’ll do we’ll give you (1:16:14) one when you come back.

Oh, that’s a bait to get you back. I love it. I love it.

Okay. Thank you, (1:16:19) man. I appreciate that.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. All right.

Have a great one. I will.